Here is a neat article in Zuzeeko’s blog about employment of immigrants in Sweden. According to the article, 41% of the cleaners are immigrants.
It would be interesting to know what the unemployment rate among immigrants in that Nordic country.
A question: If Sweden has had lots of immigrants since the 1970s, how many generations will it take for Swedes to accept immigrants? What does this say about Finland, where we are a couple of generations behind Sweden on the home immigration front?
How long it takes that USA would accept immigrants?
“Immigrant workers represent an especially large share of the total U.S. labor force in two major occupation groups: private household services (42 percent are immigrants), and farming, forestry, and fishing (37 percent). Looking only at low-wage immigrant workers, the share is even higher (44 percent in each)”
Good question, Hannu. There is a difference. We are Nordic welfare states that strongly believe in equal opportunity. But for whom?
Hannu, why do we always have to use the USA as a yardstick?
Enrique, I’m affraid – the concept of equal opportunity in Nordic States remains illusive. You asked a very pertinent question – equal opportunity for whom? For citizens?
However, it would be unfair to completely ignore Sweden’s efforts. Sweden has made some commendable moves in the right direction, but a lot more needs to be done. Finland on the other hand is lagging behind miserably and has a lot to learn from Sweden – not only in Ice Hockey, but also in integration policies.
“Hannu, why do we always have to use the USA as a yardstick?”
Because according to Enrique its great success.
“Finland on the other hand is lagging behind miserably and has a lot to learn from Sweden – not only in Ice Hockey, but also in integration policies.”
Yes we do, we can look what not to do.
–Yes we do, we can look what not to do.
Zuzeeko has made an interesting point. The lack of any clear policy or idea shows how much in diapers matters are in Finland. However, countries can always learn.
I would be interested in hearing from Zuzeeko what makes the road to acceptance and adaption easier in Sweden than in Finland. What are the good and bad points? I know this is a big question but you can summerize it for us if possible.
-“Zuzeeko has made an interesting point. The lack of any clear policy or idea shows how much in diapers matters are in Finland. However, countries can always learn.”
And fortunately we are learning.
We have seen how Sweden is swimming with problems caused directly by immigration so our idiot politicians are slowly getting the clue and starting to tighten up laws for immigration.
Good for Finland! We want quality, not numbers.
-“I would be interested in hearing from Zuzeeko what makes the road to acceptance and adaption easier in Sweden than in Finland. What are the good and bad points?”
You are approaching this the wrong way. Immigrants, specifically groups causing most trouble these days, are NOT adapting. They are instead abusing Swedish bending over attitude to bring their own culture to replace Swedish one. Leading to conflict and crime.
-“Good question, Hannu. There is a difference. We are Nordic welfare states that strongly believe in equal opportunity. But for whom?”
For everyone. Equality means EVERYONE is held to ABSOLUTELY SAME STANDARDS.
Problem with you and most immigrants is that you do not grasp that immigrants are constantly failing to live up to those standards.
Either because they fail to get their papers recognized in Finnish equivalent, or fail to put real effort into learning Finnish language or fail to understand that they have to adjust their behavior to fit Finnish society.
First part is essential to get into an interview. Finnish employer will prefer to play it safe (interviews cost a lot of money) and not invite guy with papers from unknown school of unknown quality with unknown curriculum.
Second and third are essential to lesser extent in getting interview (what kind of CV and application Finnish employer wants to see? In which language?) and very essential in actual interview.
Immigrant has to meet expectations of FINNISH standards, not assume they can waltz into interview with same attitude and behavior they would take into an interview in their native country.
–We have seen how Sweden is swimming with problems caused directly by immigration so our idiot politicians are slowly getting the clue and starting to tighten up laws for immigration.
I wonder which country is “swimming” deeper in problems: Finland or Sweden? At least the Swedes are doing something about it but we have not even started the task in Finland. It is the old cover-your-eyes-syndrome just like with all the things that went down during the cold war. If you ask me, there are already serious social problems in Finland that are not being discussed never mind addressed due to high unemployment and hostility by some Finns against some groups of immigrants.
If you have not noticed, Finland ALREADY has a foreign community. If you would read your history more carefully, you would know that Finland was, is and will be a multicultural (demographically) country. By stating that we are monocultural is understanding very little and the whole point of our history. Maybe you may like Waris and Wiik but their views of Finnish society and the Finns are antiquated and non-relevant to deal with our present challenges. Simplistic views of cultures and eugenics appeared in the 1930s and led us down a path of mass murder and devastated Europe. But if you read European history from the eighteenth century, it would only be a matter of time when some would take these so-called “Frankenstein blood-and-culture theories” and use them as a unifying force as happened tragically in Nazi Germany.
Our independence cannot be based on hatred for one or another group. We must rise above those types of passions that continue to obfuscate our soul as a nation. We must learn to put to rest these types of negative feelings.
haha…honestly, If I am a prospective immigrant who reads Tiwaz stuff I would think twice if I should move to Finland. I make more cash here in Ireland, have a better job and more fun. And we don’t have Finnish Standards 🙂
–haha…honestly, If I am a prospective immigrant who reads Tiwaz stuff I would think twice if I should move to Finland. I make more cash here in Ireland, have a better job and more fun.
Fortunately Tiwaz is not calling the shots in Finland. Giving in, or being turned off by his statements would be to approve what he says. But hey, I don’t see “hordes” of immigrants wanting to come to Finland. Why would they?
-“haha…honestly, If I am a prospective immigrant who reads Tiwaz stuff I would think twice if I should move to Finland. I make more cash here in Ireland, have a better job and more fun. And we don’t have Finnish Standards”
Ah yes, Ireland… Land of… Economic collapse. Ireland did well while EU pushed money there. Now that moneyflow is getting questionable… Island of Potatoes is in trouble.
So enjoy while you can. As for you as prospective immigrant not coming to Finland…
That is my very point! You represent the “my ass is golden”-immigrants to the letter. Just the type which I for one would not want to see come to Finland. As I would prefer to see QUALITY immigrants.
-“I wonder which country is “swimming” deeper in problems: Finland or Sweden?”
Well, if you have to wonder that you clearly have not bothered to pay attention to news. I’ll give you a hint… Goole… Malmö, riots.
-“At least the Swedes are doing something about it but we have not even started the task in Finland. I”
Like what? Bending over little further so immigrants can screw them up more easily? I have not seen Sweden have political will to clamp down on problems caused by holy multiculturalism. And odds are they won’t have it until it is far too late.
-“It is the old cover-your-eyes-syndrome just like with all the things that went down during the cold war. If you ask me, there are already serious social problems in Finland that are not being discussed never mind addressed due to high unemployment and hostility by some Finns against some groups of immigrants.”
Listen, you are the guy who refuses to see reality. You are the guy who believes against the facts. In that way, you are much like breatharians. They too “believe” they do not need to eat. Just like you “believe” that things are good in multiculturalist society.
You should try breatharianism Enrique, with all that power of believing you should hit phase of stopping eating in no time.
Biggest social issue which is not addressed is refusal of politicians to beat the immigrants in the head with clue by four, metaphorical way, that they have to make themselves employable instead of waiting for someone to offer everything on silver platter.
IMMIGRANTS are guilty for most of their problems.
Where does for example hostility towards some groups hail from? Oh yes! Those groups having disproportionate amount of rapists and criminals in their ranks! No smoke without fire!
For example Vietnamese, Chinese etc who seek to fit in have far less racism issues.
It is task of immigrant to make themselves employable. That means getting proper educational papers, learning to speak Finnish and learning to act in proper way in an interview.
-“If you have not noticed, Finland ALREADY has a foreign community. If you would read your history more carefully, you would know that Finland was, is and will be a multicultural (demographically) country.”
If you actually bothered to think with brains, you would realize that pitiful 2,7% or so does NOT make anything multicultural.
Demographically Finland is very much monocultural.
-“By stating that we are monocultural is understanding very little and the whole point of our history. ”
Do not speak of our history when you were born in Argentina and raised in USA. You are not Finn, and thus no claim to “our” history.
-“Simplistic views of cultures and eugenics appeared in the 1930s and led us down a path of mass murder and devastated Europe.
But if you read European history from the eighteenth century, it would only be a matter of time when some would take these so-called “Frankenstein blood-and-culture theories” and use them as a unifying force as happened tragically in Nazi Germany.”
Read world history. EVERY warfare has taken place where dividing lines can be drawn. And multiculturalism is all about dividing societies.
United societies are ones which are least likely to engage in internal conflict.
Look at Somalia. Look at Iraq. Look at Yugoslavia. Look at Soviet Union and now Russia. All are cases where you do not need to dig 6 decades into past to see how trying to force different cultural outlooks inside same borders is result of misery, war and slaughter.
Look at Rwanda and you see what is result of trying to prefer minority over majority, another of your pet desires where you want preferential treatment for foreigners.
You refuse to accept that preferential treatment of foreigners is not in interest of foreigners themselves!
-“Our independence cannot be based on hatred for one or another group. We must rise above those types of passions that continue to obfuscate our soul as a nation. We must learn to put to rest these types of negative feelings.”
We must learn to make clear to others that this is OUR country, and thus OUR rules. And you are not in the “we” as you are immigrant.
Because only this way Finland shall HAVE soul to claim as it’s own.
Appeasing foreigners would only create society where nobody would feel at home, where neighbors no longer trust each other and slowly whole structure of society collapses due to impossibility of multiculturalist agenda.
That is my very point! You represent the “my ass is golden”-immigrants to the letter. Just the type which I for one would not want to see come to Finland. As I would prefer to see QUALITY immigrants.
-Of course it is golden. Or do you think you are the only one with a golden ass just because you are Finnish? 🙂
-“Fortunately Tiwaz is not calling the shots in Finland. Giving in, or being turned off by his statements would be to approve what he says. But hey, I don’t see “hordes” of immigrants wanting to come to Finland. Why would they?”
Ah, but about 5 million like me DO call the shots.
As for “hordes” of immigrants. I again point out to you that Finland has far more people coming in than leaving.
And that is with relatively tight immigration laws on some areas. If we were to relax them further, we would see huge hordes indeed coming in.
It is you who refuse to see the reality.
-“Of course it is golden. Or do you think you are the only one with a golden ass just because you are Finnish?”
Actually, unlike you I do not have such illusions. I know what and who I am. My ass is just regular ass attached to just regular guy. That is why I do well abroad when I wish to go there.
I, unlike you, do not assume that natives are in any way required to appease my wants and needs as opposed to me having to adjust to their culture and norms.
Wow! It’s getting interesting in here. Thanks for creating this forum, Enrique. I owe you a beer. 🙂
”I would be interested in hearing from Zuzeeko what makes the road to acceptance and adaption easier in Sweden than in Finland. What are the good and bad points?”
Simply put – the road to adaptation in Sweden is easier than in Finland because Swedes are more dynamic and well schooled than Finns. More Swedes have traveled and more Swedes have experienced other cultures.
Also, Swedish (the language) is easier to learn. On the other hand, the Finnish language (like Russian) requires special language skills and more time to sink in.
Tiwaz said, “We have seen how Sweden is swimming with problems caused directly by immigration so our idiot politicians are slowly getting the clue and starting to tighten up laws for immigration.”
What problems? Riots?
What Tiwaz terms “problems” are things that happen in a truly democratic and diverse society – where people have a voice. Immigrants in Finland are “voiceless”, that’s why Finland does not face the so called “problems”, faced by a diverse and democratic society like Sweden. “God Save the King” of Sweden!
Hi Zuzeeko, we may probably drink that beer one day. Thank you for the offer.
Apart from an inferiority complex of some Finns when they look at Sweden, the truth is that the country you live in is economically, politically and socially miles ahead of Finland when it comes to immigrants and their acceptance. The immigrants do have a voice – albeit faint – in Finland. There are Finns who are not only scared by what is going on in Finland these days, but ashamed. If openly and proud racists lived in my community, my face would turn red.
The other matter that racism in Finland shows is that our education has failed in this respect. But I am an optimist. I believe that Finns are not so stupid as to be led by racist slogans and political parties down a road of doom that would look like a twenty-first-century version of Mississippi in the 1950s.
-Apart from an inferiority complex of some Finns when they look at Sweden, the truth is that the country you live in is economically, politically and socially miles ahead of Finland when it comes to immigrants and their acceptance.”
Sweden is much ahead indeed, and it is VERY good warning to Finland of why multiculturalism must not be permitted here. Sweden may be lost cause, let them sink but I prefer Finland not going down with it.
-“What Tiwaz terms “problems” are things that happen in a truly democratic and diverse society – where people have a voice. Immigrants in Finland are “voiceless”, that’s why Finland does not face the so called “problems”, faced by a diverse and democratic society like Sweden. “God Save the King” of Sweden!”
What problems?
Yes, riots are one. Those are NOT sign of healthy society. Healthy society does NOT see destruction of other people’s property as good or desirable thing.
Honor murders is another and other “enriching” attributes of certain cultural groups.
And then there is issue of crime committed by immigrants at rates which leave natives far behind.
None of those three are signs of healthy and stable society. They are signs of society in decline and heading for implosion.
–Sweden is much ahead indeed, and it is VERY good warning to Finland of why multiculturalism must not be permitted here. Sweden may be lost cause, let them sink but I prefer Finland not going down with it.
Finland is not permitting multiculturalism? Hey, read history and learn what this country is. Finland was, is and will be a multicultural country demographically. Our laws permit dviersity and it is a normal part of our lives. The problem is not with Finland but with you. It appears that you have a problem with change.
Enrique: Just ignore him. There is something wrong with this guy (1715 postings).
-“Finland is not permitting multiculturalism? Hey, read history and learn what this country is. Finland was, is and will be a multicultural country demographically. Our laws permit dviersity and it is a normal part of our lives. The problem is not with Finland but with you. It appears that you have a problem with change.”
Must not does not equal that it does not currently. It is simply something we have to do soon or we suffer the same problems as Swedes.
Read history. Show me when Finland was “multicultural”…
You can’t. When we were under Swedish rule, it was Swedish rules and not Swedish/Finnish rules. There was not “sharing of public space”. If you wanted something, you had to speak Swedish.
Where is multiculturalism there?
Same with Russians.
Where is sharing of public space there?
As for accepting diversity. I accept diversity. I accept change.
What I do not accept is foreigner assuming they have any business coming to Finland and demanding any special treatment which you so much want them to have.
When you come to Finland, you have no right to any special treatment. If you can’t get a job because you have no skills, it is YOUR fault. Learn language, learn culture. Learn useful skills.
But you and rest of imbeciles just keep whining that Finns not hiring immigrant who has no useful skills is racism. As if immigrant should be granted job they are not qualified for, or do not have as good set of skills as competing Finn.
Or demand that we must close our eyes to problems caused by immigrants. Rapes do not take place… We must close our eyes from fact that certain immigrant groups are excessively present in rape statistics!
We should not do anything to solve this problem because it would mean forcing immigrants to grasp that they are now in Finland, not Wahabbistan. And in name of holy multiculturalism they have right to force their culture upon us.
Wake up Enrique! Multiculturalist attitude just tries to hide problems until they are so huge and so blatant that native population cannot be made ignore them anymore. And that is when problems for immigrants really start.
-“Just ignore him. There is something wrong with this guy (1715 postings).”
There is something wrong in thick heads of immigrants who think they are “special” and “entitled” which forces one to beat common sense into their heads time and time again.
It’s getting even better 6125 posts from Tiwaz in this forum with similar statements:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=175409&page=3
Over 6000 postings from Tiwaz with similar statements in this Forum:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=175409&page=3
Man you are the ultra immigrant hater 🙂
Ah, you try to attack me because you cannot attack my arguments.
xyz, you are pathetic.
I am indeed anti-multiculturalist, because it is idea which is nice in theory but failure in practice.
By the way, if you had been smart or honest, you would notice that my posts touch wide variety of issues. You should read them, you would learn thing or two.
Tiwaz: No thanks. The stuff you are posting here is already hurting my eyes.