Can an open and honest debate on multiculturalism take place in Finland when people feel directly threatened by it? Can we ever aspire as a nation to integrate people into our society when some of us are not even ready to give the time of day to foreigners?
Racism is a serious problem in Finland because people may get death threats if they try to honestly debate the real issues. Some of those who carry out such threats, or those that are the most recalcitrant, believe that matters such as integrating outsiders into a society is easy if one has the right attitude.
Integrating into Finnish society is difficult for many reasons. If one can pass the hurdles of language and grasps the culture well enough, one soon reaches the highest hurdle of them all: fear and history.
In my opinion, Finland’s tumultuous history in the previous century with its eastern neighbor Russia has kept such fears alive to date. Some Finns still fear that their culture is threatened or under attack. That probably explains why our definition of who is a Finn or not is very rigid.
One has only to look at the regional differences in Finland to understand what I am talking about. If some Finns already make a big deal because a person from Savo moved to the Satakunta region, imagine what it is like for a foreigner who was not brought up with the same cultural tools as the Finn from Savo?
Unfortunately, fear continues to reflect our disjointed immigration policy and even how some Finns see people from diverse cultural backgrounds.
Immigration is not a threat. It becomes, however, disjointed and dysfunctional when the majority culture fears. Normal relations and integration are impossible because they are tainted by the poison of a close relative of fear called suspicion.
There is also reluctance by many Finns and foreigners to take part in a meaningful, rich debate about living as neighbors because that too is being intimidated by fear.
I come from Savo. My mother is from North-Karelia. I have lived in Jyväskylä and now reside in Tampere. My significant other is from Southern-Karelia.
Nowhere there has been any issues of any of us not being Finnish. What you speak of, is either “discrimination” in jest, or outdated knowledge. There is no big deal.
Only areas where native Finn might have problems are dominantly Swedish areas.
Real issue in multiculturalism discussion is not fears of natives. It is refusal of pro-multiculturalists to be realists and look critically at what such thing causes to society.
Finns overall value safety above most things. Peace and safety.
Neither are present in any “multicultural” society. There simply is too little unity within population to prevent major social issues.
Or do you deny this? I still have not heard from you example of society which is multicultural but without major social problems. Or one with strong social cohesion.
If you cannot present one, how can you call multicultural society beneficial for society which values peace, safety and stability above most other issues?
Problem are not Finns who are against multiculturalist principles, problem are multiculturalists who do not see how their system fails to provide stability, safety and unity.
Your issues are with Finnish culture and society which you do not understand. That is why you try to attack it continuously, force it to appease your desires and cultural norms.
Not giving time of day to immigrant? What makes you think Finns give time of day to other Finns? You judge society based on principles which belong to another society, and thus are not applicable. Apples and oranges!
Another issue is, that it IS issue with right mentality to integrate. Immigrants simply do not appear to want to put out the effort. Those who do, integrate well and fast. Those who do this, are accepted. Again, I point out gentlemen Schatz and Hardwick. I doubt they were born with linguistic and cultural knowledge of Finland. They LEARNED.
I cannot make you learn anything, you have to learn on your own. There is no way to just upload all the knowledge you need into your head. Specially since there really isn’t comprehensive database on everything you have to know.
Finns do not think how they behave, we learned to behave according to Finnish social norms from youth. It is as subconscious to us as behaving like Argentinian is to Argentinian and behaving like Bulgarian is to Bulgarian.
Tiwaz (DeTant?), you are not being honest in your statements. There are very big differences regionally in Finland. Moreover, to not admit that fear is an important element of the debate over bringing more foreign workers to Finland is not seeing the real problem.
–Or do you deny this? I still have not heard from you example of society which is multicultural but without major social problems. Or one with strong social cohesion.
If you read my previous post on “Finland of Mayberry,” your view that Finland is a social-problem free society because it has so few foreigners is a myth. Your point of view reveals the Finland of Mayberry syndrome than anything else.
Big differences? Not really. While it is popular to say that Karelians are talkative, Tavastians slow or how it went…
Differences are rather marginal compared to differences between Finns and foreigners. Some parts in speech are different, granted. But that is just dialect. Only couple dialects are really incomprehensible to another Finn. Differences in behavior are also minute. In short, unless Finn is total imbecile, there is little to no problems adjusting to life on different part of Finland. And it no longer is big deal. It used to be huge issue if guy from eastern part moved to western or so, but today we travel very much inside our country.
As conclusion, differences are so minute and still follow principles and culture of Finnish society so that adjustment takes place naturally over rather short period. Few if any differences are more than cosmetic.
Now, about this fear of outsiders. Why you think there is fear? Because Finns do not rush to welcome immigrants with red mat, open arms and scream on top of our lungs how happy we are that great masters came to us unwashed barbarians to show how civilized people behave?
Is it actually fear of immigrants to adapt and integrate which is real issue?
You see, all these things come down to one issue… Immigrants do not integrate. Finns cannot make them integrate, we do not have mental upload system to just fill immigrant heads with all the necessary skills. You have to do it the old fashionate way. But immigrant FEAR and RACISM of everything that is Finnish tends to slow down and cause problems to this process.
See, that is as reasonable argument as yours. I just turned it around for a change. Actually more reasonable, as we have integrated immigrants who have been accepted into society. Those who have integrated and are not accepted would have to be checked more carefully to see if there actually is some other issues that have caused them to be outcast.
As for Finland and Mayberry. There is no society which does not have some issues. But multiculturalism does not help in this. Just changing and increasing problems is not solution to problems.
Multicultural society always brings division, crime and social issues along. I rather have the relatively minor social issues of aging population over ganglands and slums which you try to import along with your multiculturalism.
I have no problem with Finland developing, but change for sake of change or diversity for sake of diversity are never good things. You have to weigh issues on their benefits and problems. Multicultural society would bring more problems to Finland than it would solve. Thus it is change which is not to be embraced.
Finland IS rather problem free because it has few unintegrated immigrants. It would have much more problems if we increased that number by pretending that they can behave as if they were back at home when in Finland.
Finland is safe and stable because we lack such clear and powerful divisions multicultural society brings with it. Biggest division we have right now is between Finnish and Swedish parts of population. And even that issue is rather moot, as Swedish parts are not Swedish culturally, but Finnish. Just their language (and huge majority of them speaks Finnish just fine) is bit different.
This is different from “multicultural” society where there is no common cultural background nor language background. Creating in effect Us vs Them situation, as everyone automatically backs up ones with their own cultural and linguistic background.
DeTant, I know this is you. It really disappoints me: Hank W, DeTant and now Tiwaz! Please make up your mind who you are. That would clear things up a lot about our debate. It will not be resolved by a good-cop-bad-cop style. This blog was, and IS, a forum to debate issues on immigration in Finland in a forthcoming fashion.
The bigotry and and the false identities shows one part of Finland that is indeed in a very sorry state. Thank you for revealing it to us.
Enrique, could you give some real-life examples of those “very big differences” between Finnish regions? From my personal experience, I think you’re dead wrong. I grew up in a small place in the countryside, but neither of my parents were originally from there. It seemed that half of my classmates in school were cousins with each other, but my “foreignness” was NEVER an issue with them.
Later on, I’ve lived in other parts of Finland, and where I come from has always been a non-issue. The only thing that separates (Finnish-speaking) Finns from each other are different dialects, and it’s easy to adopt a new dialect. All Finnish dialects are mutually comprehensible. There might be some conflict between city-slickers and country bumpkins, but this division is superficial, too, as it’s easy to migrate from one category to another. A hundred years ago the difference between Finnish regions may have been more marked, but education, media, and intra-country migration have homogenized Finland even further since then.
I’ve been following the American presidential election campaigns, and it’s striking how divided that country is. The race question seems to loom very large, and socio-cultural and economic differences are so marked that lots of people seem to think that they have nothing in common with tens of millions of their own countrymen. Reading about that kind of things really makes you wonder why on earth some people want to introduce that kind of bullshit into Finland. Why do we need all that added conflict?
One example were the Karelians when they were resettled to Finland. Many thought they were to blame for the war. A sort of stigma followed them. Certainly many of them, won’t be able to tell their stories because they are dead. I am happy for you if you can cross regional differences so easily. There is the kehä 3 line that separates Finns and some, in regions are never fully accepted because they come from somewhere else. What about the difference between Kainuu region and urban Finland, say Helsinki? My point here is that if these differences exist, how does it make it easier for a foreigner to adapt and be accepted.
The United States has a lot of issues. The Spanish speakers are one of the most disenfranchised group. However, because of a lively debate, they are willing to address such issues. Debating and addressing issues is healthy.
Let us not fall into the Finland of Mayberry trap.
– There is no way to just upload all the knowledge you need into your head.
Not true. Look at the 5-year old immigrant children in a Finnish kindergarten. They yell in the puddles screaming their heads off. Take about 6 months they speak Finnish fluently. I think it is due to osmosis.
– Specially since there really isn’t comprehensive database on everything you have to know.
Oh, but there is, you know the nurses have this big book of “things everybody knows but nobody tells you” they make the babies eat in the clinic – how else can you explain the schoolkids being able to cope with life in Finland when their parents can not.
Don’t be giving out all the secrets.
– DeTant, I know this is you. It really disappoints me: Hank W, DeTant and now Tiwaz! Please make up your mind who you are. That would clear things up a lot about our debate.
Sorry – I am me, and as I said I write to one other political blog as Hank W. – this dishwash I mean Tiwaz is some character from Tampere. We do share some points of view, but he is more of your “native” if I can call it that in his outlook than I am, as I have lived my small life surrounded with all kinds of characters in the stone city. He does seem to quote a few of my writings but how can I stop him from doing that? I don’t think I have a patent on my style.
If you want to debate – then make some new points. I think Tiwaz has asked you now about a dozen times for some example of a functioning multicultural society so please provide one to him. You’ve gone with this Mayberry mantra which is very nice but as it is a cultural reference from some tv series I’ve never seen so if you want to do cultural references try something that actually was shown here on tv and is common for us. You have by means all the “multiculturalist” right to refer to anything you like – but to have a debate we need a common reference point.
The facts remain – if a person is hungry then he should be given something to eat instead of having people stop calling him hungry.
– There might be some conflict between city-slickers and country bumpkins, but this division is superficial, too,
It depends a whole lot of your age group as well. Teenagers can and will be quite polarizing in this manner, especially in the pairing-up phase when the girls go for the outsiders and the guys have an alpha male lookout on. And of course there is the differences of small villages and everyone knowing everyone and then the anonymity in a big city. But this kind of phenomenons are universal and can happen – according to certain local rules – in any society and culture. “Does your father own land – how many heads of cattle?” maybe rude to ask from a city girl but a country girl might answer “hundred hectares and forty milking ones”… assuming things is what creates the conflict – observing things and being able to figure out the “rules” is what makes – well, if you need to go picking blood out of your nose you can get into conflict – but it makes the chance of you inadvertently getting into conflicts smaller.
– A sort of stigma followed them.
The stigma was the question of land. The resettling act was a pretty huge integration plan making the refugees people and not just having them sit around. However the Swedish-speaking areas refused to take on the refugees and this was a bit of a sore thing back in the day to the landed farmers who had to split up their lands. However as far as the cultural integration went – you look now at many “local” dishes there is Karelian delicacies spread out the country – called “local” and you look at the tradition of the “Easter Witches” with the painted eggs and the decorated pussy willow whisks that is a conglomerate of two quite separate traditions now forming a new one that is called “traditional” even if it isn’t quite a generation old.
– debate over bringing more foreign workers to Finland is not seeing the real problem.
And why exactly do we need to “bring workers” if you can read the newspapers just yesterday what is happening in Kainuu? And what is your answer to their problems? A course in multiculturalism?
Karjalan paisti and Karjalan piirakka… yes they were from karelia but to me is was just name. Finnish good food. I knew what karjala is and i knew FINNISH people had to flee from there.
We made both of those and probably more i dont even know (what you think is foreign) in home.
Is pääsiäinen something mixed 😮
To me is painting eggs and that grass thing.Witches were scary tho.
Of course there is friction when suddenly 400.000 people comes in.
I am lapp and i have lived multiple cities in every corner in finland (not sami, lapp). And there arent any problems.
– DeTant, I know this is you. It really disappoints me: Hank W, DeTant and now Tiwaz! Please make up your mind who you are. That would clear things up a lot about our debate.
Let’s hope so. Apart from your subtle and sometimes harsh comments that hit below the belt, I appreciate some of your points.
–Not true. Look at the 5-year old immigrant children in a Finnish kindergarten. They yell in the puddles screaming their heads off. Take about 6 months they speak Finnish fluently. I think it is due to osmosis.
Yes, children suck up information like a plant. They have that ability. Probably those kids learned better than some adults to put aside differences and find the wonderful joy of being a child.
–And why exactly do we need to “bring workers” if you can read the newspapers just yesterday what is happening in Kainuu? And what is your answer to their problems? A course in multiculturalism?
That question you should ask your MP. I just spoke to a person from a TE-Keskus and he’s going to Poland and Bulgaria to bring workers to Finland. What kind of professions? Welders, nurses, gardeners… DeTant, nobody is saying that in Finland does not need foreign workers — unless the social planner, politicians, government and companies are making it all up. What happened at those two paper mills is very tragic indeed.
–We made both of those and probably more i dont even know (what you think is foreign) in home.
I home is a place where you find a bit of happiness and have a future. One can build many homes in his lifetime.
–I am lapp and i have lived multiple cities in every corner in finland (not sami, lapp). And there arent any problems.
Good for you, Onkko. That means that you are probably young and do not have hang ups about where you are from or what people think.
– I just spoke to a person from a TE-Keskus and he’s going to Poland and Bulgaria to bring workers to Finland
So why are they doing it? For the simple reason of money – these unemployed paper workers cost too much and you can get people from poorer economies happy to live in squalor that can be exploited. Your TE-keskus guy is a modern slave trader. These people they bring in can and will work two jobs and live in a trailer and still send most of their salary home so their children can have shoes to go to school in winter, and all for half the salary you would need to pay for a person living in Finland. There is no need to bring in anybody if they would lower the taxes so normal people could live on the salaries they offer. But getting slaves is cheaper.
– nobody is saying that in Finland does not need foreign workers
Why doesn’t your TE-keskus person go hire those Romanians begging on the street? They are already here and according to you they must be all brain surgeons as they are creating millions of jobs as we speak. So why not – does the TE keskus have something against ethnic minorities?
– unless the social planner, politicians, government and companies are making it all up.
I have a good and novel idea, we should outsource all these useless jobs you mentioned to Bulgaria.
– nobody is saying that in Finland does not need foreign workers
Maybe you should ask the 5000 unemployed people in Kainuu and the 2000 more from the effects of the papermill closure about this – instead of your fat friends in government shelter jobs.
– There is also reluctance by many Finns and foreigners to take part in a meaningful, rich debate about living as neighbors because that too is being intimidated by fear.
Yes, because any time you say something to a foreigner they start screaming “racism” even if its a simple thing. Even if it rains it is because of racism. And then having to listen someone complain of how it rains all the time? As it is evidently my fault? Buy an umbrella and stop moaning, it rains on everyone else too.
-Let’s hope so. Apart from your subtle and sometimes harsh comments that hit below the belt, I appreciate some of your points.
This issue is sorted out?
Perhaps I should scream racism too… DT is not exactly polite in his definitions of me here… And he is, IIRC, coming from family which at least at some point in past has Swedish connection….
Clearly case of discrimination! Rudeness and whatnot.
Or I could just do the “Finnish” thing and shrug.
Finland has been a society of many cultures for much longer than the other Nordic countries in many ways. If you had found yourself in Helsinki in, let’s say, 1870, you would have found yourself in probably the most multicultural city in Scandinavia. More so than Stockholm, Copenhagen or Oslo/Christiania.
I find it intriguing that these racist rhetoric-filled people who comment on your blog who presumably might characterise themselves as nationalists or perhaps ‘defenders’ of Finnish culture actually have such a low confidence in that culture. Personally, I believe Finland has a strong culture and set of traditions. I don’t believe it is so weak that it will disappear because of immigrants arriving and bringing a greater variety of cultures into our country. It didn’t disappear under years of rule by foreign powers, so why would it now? Nothing is, can be, or should be static. Things move on. Hmm, does this mean I have a stronger believe in Finnishness (whatever that may be) than the xenophobic nationalists? Seems quite possible.
As for the argument that some of those that comment on your blog have in regards to integration (and zero tolerance for multiculturalism) it would be interesting for them to define what are uniquely Finnish values. If we look at countries were this intolerant approach has tried to be brought into official policy (and Denmark under recent years is a good place to turn to), you can see that they have had extreme difficulty in coming up with a definition of ‘Danishness’. In the end, you end up with a list of things such as ‘democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, tolerance etc’. Yes, as you’ve noticed, these ideals are essentially universal – not uniquely Danish. So, beyond offering things like language and employment support, forcing people to integrate and turn into a ‘Finn’ is impossible – because it’s impossible to define what is a Finn, probably because already we Finns are pretty diverse already. My idea of what a Finn is is probably different from Tiwaz, who in turn probably has a different idea to that of Onkko etc etc. There’s probably about as many definitions as there are Finnish people. It’s pointless pursuing a policy that is impossible to realise, whatever you think of it.
As for regional differences within Finland; of course they exist. There are some pretty noticeable differences even within the regions of Swedish-speaking Finland, and we’re not that many in number. So, of course there are differences in Finnish-speaking Finland’s various regions. Just look at the stock of popular jokes and stereotypes about various regions. They have arisen for a reason.
–Maybe you should ask the 5000 unemployed people in Kainuu and the 2000 more from the effects of the papermill closure about this – instead of your fat friends in government shelter jobs.
That is a populist answer. No, I will ask the experts and our representatives in government. Nobody is saying that what has happened in Kainuu, the region with the greatest unemployment in Finland, that it is a personal tragedy for all of those that have lost their jobs. However, how many of these are willing to change professions?
DeTant, you express stringent opposition to multiculturalism in general terms. We live in a globalized world, compete and aim to survive as a country. What chances would Finland have in surviving economically if it closed itself as a clam and attempted to turn Finland into a Mayberry? Answer: Finland would turn into an underdeveloped country — the first thing you’d lose is the money you carry in your wallet.
–Yes, because any time you say something to a foreigner they start screaming “racism” even if its a simple thing. Even if it rains it is because of racism. And then having to listen someone complain of how it rains all the time? As it is evidently my fault? Buy an umbrella and stop moaning, it rains on everyone else too.
If you read some of your comments and that of others, any sensible person can conclude that they ARE racist. How can anyone debate anything objectively when the other side thinks that foreigners have to first do the impossible — 100% integration/integration by perkele) before they can start to debate their grievances?
I consider it quite incredible that some of you believe that tax-paying foreigners do not have any rights to air their problems because this is “our” land. That sounds more like mob rule that has no place in our society.
–So, beyond offering things like language and employment support, forcing people to integrate and turn into a ‘Finn’ is impossible – because it’s impossible to define what is a Finn, probably because already we Finns are pretty diverse already.
You hit the hammer on the nail. That is why I asked Tiwaz to give me a list of the things a foreigner must do in order to become Finn. They were only general things that many immigrants have learned but still continue to be discriminated.
As I mentioned previously, there is NO empirical study on what is Finnish national character. That is a myth. Cultures are as complex as people. They have certain traits but when you study them deeper, you notice how complex their personality is. With respect to behavior in a culture, it hinges more on predictability. Our culture makes behavior predictable and enables fluid social contact. Those who are not predictable, usually live in asylums or are in prison.
All cultures are complex and impossible to define in clear compartments. Possibly this is the secret to a culture’s survival: it is open to new ideas/values and has the ability to modernize and change according to the circumstances. Look at our culture — or anyones for a fact — and see how much it has been influenced by other cultures.
Look at the Finnish diet and how much it has changed in the past 30-40 years. Remember when some Finns had never heard of what was a pizza? Today it is one of the most popular foods enjoyed by Finns.
But you fail to understand HOW cultures change, they change slowly and from within.
Attempt to force culture to change and appease demands of external group, like immigrants, does not change culture. It causes friction between natives who follow cultural norms of nation and immigrants who try to force cultural norms of their nation of origin.
Your comment about integrated immigrants facing serious problems is false. What is reason for “integrated” immigrant to receive different treatment is that they are NOT yet integrated. You may think you behave just like Finn, but in reality when native looks at you and listens to you, you are giving off dozens of signals that you are not one, you simply do not fit in.
You are also correct, cultures importance is in establishing single, common ground for interaction. That is also why stable and unified multicultural society is impossible.
It lacks the single common nominator which would make social cohesion possible. Without cohesion, people automatically separate into groups which soon settle into “Us vs Them” situation.
That is why immigrants have to integrate to society they move to. Else they will start the process of fracturing the social structure as people no longer know how to interact.
Enrique, since you try to claim there is no empirical study on “finnish national character”
(then what are attributes generally attached to Finns? Generalisations overall yes, but they do not come from thin air)…
Where is empirical study on stable, unified and functional multicultural society?
You try to demand simple examples of complex issues. Like definition of Finnish. There is no clear definition, we do not have mental checklist of “Finnishness”. It is purely subconscious process which goes through so many different things which we never even think that you can’t have list.
One of the matters that I have tried to ask myself is what percentage of Finns think like you; ie that immigrants are a threat and they will turn Finland into a “hellhole” as you state. I think you are a minority, which belongs to the baby-boom generation. There was a lot of pain because of the war and changes in Finnish society (rural to an industrialized urban society).
I believe that immigrants, especially those that come to work and improve their lives, want to integrate and be a part of Finnish society. Why would a young man or woman want to leave his country just to live off welfare and be a target of discrimination?
A good indication of how dysfunctional the foreign community in Finland are unemployment figures. Depending on the group, they suffer from double-digit unemployment. Now there may be many reasons for this, but one fact shines through: they won’t be able to take part in our society when they survive on welfare.
Furthermore, the argument that “I do not understand your reality” because I’m not a native is wrong. I have heard this argument in the US, Argentina and in other countries where I have lived. I believe that I understand too well what the problems are in Finland. That is the gift that I have been given because I have seen and lived in many countries.
Nobody can impose anything on anyone. Cultures change because time changes things.
– I consider it quite incredible that some of you believe that tax-paying foreigners do not have any rights to air their problems because this is “our” land.
Oh, so now they are tax-paying foreigners all of a sudden?
– A good indication of how dysfunctional the foreign community in Finland are unemployment figures. Depending on the group, they suffer from double-digit unemployment.
Oh, so what, they are unemployed all of a sudden?
Make up your mind, this is doubly confusing.
What I am saying is that if someone has a *valid* grievance I am championing for their right to complain. I’ve helped many people write petitions and whatnot. However I am not listening to someone griping about Finland “not being like at home.”
– Nobody is saying that what has happened in Kainuu, the region with the greatest unemployment in Finland, that it is a personal tragedy for all of those that have lost their jobs. However, how many of these are willing to change professions?
You want to bring in people to work for cheaper rates. Any sensible person can deduce you want to drive the people of Kainuu out of our homes and lands to become rootless migrants like yourself? That is racism.
– I believe that immigrants, especially those that come to work and improve their lives, want to integrate and be a part of Finnish society.
The problem isn’t with those immigrants, and never has been.
– They have certain traits but when you study them deeper, you notice how complex their personality is. With respect to behavior in a culture, it hinges more on predictability. Our culture makes behavior predictable and enables fluid social contact. Those who are not predictable, usually live in asylums or are in prison.
Exactly – those who are not predictable live in a multiculturalist ghetto where they live within a group of their own with a different set of rules as what comes to “predictability”. That is exactly why it is important to have the whole community share the same “predictability”. The rules and laws are the same for everyone. And you cannot decide the common rules of predictability if you have segregated multiculturalist ghettoes where you have to be respecting the other and not have an open debate.
I have nothing against immigrants themselves. I have several Romanian friends I help get buy here when they start up. However I am totally objecting the wholesale importing of people on false pretenses as the reality and especially economic reality is not what it looks like from the marketing brochures. The authorities do jack all to help people find work – especially people without linguistic abilities, so I think it is cruel to lure people here who have no chance to gain a job because then the employers “need workers” start asking for Finnish skills a person straight off the plane obviously does not have. And because of no job, no social security number and no chance of getting onto a language course – which would even for a prodigy take at least a year to master. So don’t start telling me of “need for workers” it is total bullshit. I happen to have seen with my own eyes how much “need for workers” there is.
Oh yeah, once again an arrogant foreigner who has decided to tell us finns what we are like, teach us our own history and tell us how to live in our own country. Enrique, if you feel so terrible here in Finland, please feel free to move to some other country. You don’t even have to visit here. Nobody in here will be missing you, and from what you have written I can assume you won’t be missing us or our miserable country. So it is a perfect win-win solution.
– Depending on the group, they suffer from double-digit unemployment. Now there may be many reasons for this, but one fact shines through:
People should look into the mirror. It is not my fault, it is not the governments fault – it is their own fault due to the choices they make. If you are given a fishing rod then you should use the rod and learn to fish.
Good example here:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Large+companies+in+South+Finland+most+willing+to+hire+Roma/1135239380184
Yes, there is discrimination, but yes, there is more weighing problems like lack of skills and education that should be admitted to and people look in the mirror and fix them and then we can concentrate the “problem” of discrimination. You seem to think it is somehow the cause of things whereas it is the effect of the bigger problems.
I’m not the baby boom generation. I’m one generation after that and I agree in alot what Tiwaz is saying. I mean who can argue the proof isn’t there? Who can not look at the France, Britain, Denmark…. etc. And say, there’s a problem and they need to deal with it. I’m for people that come after me. I don’t want them to pay the prize because I didn’t say anything or never stood up for anything.
And to think, alot of people I know do too. We rarely discuss these things, since nobody’s really interested (apart from some Turkish and Armenians which are very nicely integrated, there are not alot of foreigners.), but the racism you accuse Tiwaz from, is not really racism. Because with common man it’s just that they hate foreigners because they’re foreign. That’s that. I’ve talked alot with different kind of people, and the one thing that connects us, is that we are all basicly racist.
The fact is, we can still get along with it and deal with it, but not trying to make it go away by trying to conceptualize it. As I see it, it’s a very healthy self preservative thing in a human male and people are trying to weed that out with talking words that don’t mean anything and thinking that more foreigners somehow make it go away, while the effect as I see it is completely opposite.
How are we -or anyone- going to have an honest discussion, when the reality is being smoked with politically correct rubbish, straw men, and moral self righteous gloat?
– Why would a young man or woman want to leave his country just to live off welfare
Well if the option is your neighbours come at night and chop off your parents nose and limbs off with a machete and drag you to be a child soldier in the lords liberation army. You really think some people have a choice?
– Furthermore, the argument that “I do not understand your reality” because I’m not a native is wrong. I have heard this argument in the US, Argentina and in other countries where I have lived.
So, everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who is right? 😀
Like if I was repeated a dozen times I can’t sing a note I wouldn’t be queuing up to the Idols.
– Nobody can impose anything on anyone.
So you agree “in Rome you do as the Romans do”?
I think people need to start debating sensibly rather than falling back on rhetoric, which is admittedly easier – but not very helpful in problem solving or in achieving a meaningful debate.
It is not helpful to create a ‘them’ and ‘us’ type situation. Unfortunately, this is all too often done, even at the official level. All it does is to actually entrench the divide and make it harder for immigrants to integrate. Lumping all migrants, whether they be economic or refugees, ‘good’ or ‘bad’ etc into a group of ‘others’ is really really unhelpful and will only serve as a mental barrier (both in the new and existing population groups) to prevent integration.
The success stories are where people have been treated as full members of the community – from both sides – and society and not seen as an unnatural group of ‘others’.
–So, everybody else is wrong and you are the only one who is right? 😀
No, DeTant, I did not mean that. My point is that sometimes others who do not agree with you point out: “You do not understand our reality,” or “You are not a native – so how should you know?
–So you agree “in Rome you do as the Romans do”?
No, I did not mean that. Foreigners or Finns cannot impose anything on each other. They can, however, learn to live together for the better of society.
I agree. The format of some of the comments should be: problem, background and solutions. That is the format of a good editorial. Apart from the rhetoric, there has been albeit few attempts to address the issues. One suggestion, which I refer to as integration by perkele, does not work. So there has to be — in my opinion — another way. I think the main points in integration are: learning to speak Finnish or Swedish (or English at least to make yourself understood before you learn the language(s)), knowledge of the cultural mores of Finland, learn about the history, geography and, VERY IMPORTANT, get employment to begin your life. These are sensible things that can be required of any group of foreigners that move to Finland.
From the Finnish side, it would be a lowering of barriers (“them” versus “us” mentality), or suspicion of other groups. To help the integration process, it would be even advisable for Finns to learn about the cultures that foreigners represent, especially if they deal with them professionally or as friends.
two guys, same papers and same work experience. Other speaks finnish and behaves finnish way. Who they choose.. hmm…
The one who is most qualified to do the job.
So thats finnish and youll yell racism
Who knows, it may be the foreigner and in some cases the Finn. It depends. You are the one using the “r” word here — not me.
** So you agree “in Rome you do as the Romans do”?
*No, I did not mean that.
OK, no problem, one cross each, line on the left… look on the bright side of life.
– My point is that sometimes others who do not agree with you point out: “You do not understand our reality,” or “You are not a native – so how should you know?
Well if you have not dived, how should you know how it is when your regulator clogs and you need to rise and get the bends?
If you have never been to a reindeer… “separation” (onkko, whats the word in English?) how do you know what it is to throw the lasso?
You are saying people how to dive and how to throw the lasso.
Thats our point… or theirs who say “you cannot understand”… it is one thing being able to look at things as an outside observer, but without being able to go in and do the things I am myself in no position to start telling people what they should do.
– Lumping all migrants, whether they be economic or refugees, ‘good’ or ‘bad’ etc into a group of ‘others’ is really really unhelpful and will only serve as a mental barrier (both in the new and existing population groups) to prevent integration.
I think thats my point exactly… SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE, IS PEOPLE!
Its all to the person himself. Now he may act like an “a” because he is an “a”, or his cultural values conflict with mine so he seems to be acting like an “a” – in my cultural perspective. But if I am denied the right to call him the “a” he is or discuss why I seem to him an “a” – *then* we get these problems. He might thing the light shines out of his “a”, like the woman who dragged him here tells him. However everyone thinks he is an “a.” But thats racism and xenophobia and nothing to do with him beating up his wife.
Also what I see is the problem of women they get this exotic fruit, who can well be an “a” – and defend his qualities and call it “racism” when any other native person would be told – “you are an “a”.
And if someone is an “a” I do not care if his “a”holiness gets offended. He will not stop being an “a” even if nobody calls him that, the zen of “if a Finnish man is alone in the forest and there is no woman to hear him – is he still wrong?”
-If you have never been to a reindeer… “separation” (onkko, whats the word in English?) how do you know what it is to throw the lasso?
Its not lasso its suopunki and i dont care what poroerotus is in english, its finnish happening.
Been there only once tho because my granfather sold his reindeers when i were young. I arent that north and not from right people.
And if some Enrique came there to tell how to do things first he would be laughed away and if he dont get a hint next would be leukku.
– The fact is, we can still get along with it and deal with it, but not trying to make it go away by trying to conceptualize it. As I see it, it’s a very healthy self preservative thing in a human male and people are trying to weed that out with talking words that don’t mean anything and thinking that more foreigners somehow make it go away, while the effect as I see it is completely opposite.
Naag, you have one point there. We all remember that Finland has not had too many foreigners for so long. I was married in 1990’s (since divorced), and I had one of my friends who happened to be an elder Malawian gentleman come to my wedding in the boonies. *Everyone* including my sister who had been an expat came to whisper at me and ask “who is that guy” and I smirked and “go ask him, but watch out, he is cannibal and will eat you”… my friends of my generation had seen him on the road and in the village and said – “eh, that fellows coming to DeTant’s wedding”… probably at that time still seing an African man in that village was a shock to everybody in the older generation… oh, and my best man was a brit.
But it would not have been *any* different the situation would have been in 1950’s UK in some small village town. Finland needs to be compared to its “peers” and as we have the benefit of seeing what the others have done right or wrong we can avoid the pitfalls.
If I went married again, well, my bride might be Argentinian, and in the collection of my “friends” would be a few americans, a couple Indians, five turks and a plethora of EU nationals… and my sister wouldn’t blink an eye. *That* is how much Finland has changed in some 10 years alone, but I still don’t see if in 1990 it would have had any “benefit” to have gathered random foreigners just to bring “color” to the wedding as if they were flowers.
– first he would be laughed away and if he dont get a hint next would be leukku.
You mean someone would mark him in the ears for his own, or then… ah, but *that* is done by biting 😀
– Been there only once tho because my granfather sold his reindeers when i were young. I arent that north and not from right people.
aaahhh… I thought you were a hayfoot but you’re a dunger.. hey at least not train-brought…
see now how easy it is Enrique to make innocent comments… nothing “offensive” in the terms is there… but “as a native you would not know” 😉
I think though I need to offer peace pipe to Onkko and several drink offerings if we ever meet in person to avoid the leuku. Even *I* know *that* much as a southern dunger.
As far as “culture of fear of foreigners” here is one of my tidbits of history. The “Finns” are the Sami, Kvens are probably Tavastian (Finns) and “Kirjala” are Karelians. Kovaa peliä Bostonissa from Egil’s Saga
That winter Thorolf went again to Finmark, taking with him about a hundred men. As before, he held a fair with the Finns, and travelled far and wide over Finmark. But when he reached the far east, and his coming was heard of, then came to him some Kvens, saying that they were sent by Faravid, king of Kvenland, because the Kiriales were harrying his land; and his message was that Thorolf should go thither and bear him help; and further that Thorolf should have a share of the booty equal to the king’s share, and each of his men as much as two Kvens. With the Kvens the law was that the king should have one-third as compared with his men when the booty was shared, and beyond that, as reserved for him, all bearskins and sables. Thorolf put this proposal before his men, giving them the choice to go or not; and the more part chose to venture it, as the prize was so great. This is was decided that they should go eastwards with the messengers.
Finmark is a wide tract; it is bounded westwards by the sea, wherefrom large firths run in; by sea also northwards and round to the east; but southwards lies Norway; and Finmark stretches along nearly all the inland region to the south, as also does Halogaland outside. But eastwards from Naumdale is Jamtaland, then Helsingjaland and Kvenland, then Finland, then Kirialaland; along all these lands to the north lies Finmark, and there are wide inhabited fell-districts, some in dales, some by lakes. The lakes of Finmark are wonderfully large, and by the lakes there are extensive forests. But high fells lie behind from end to end of the Mark, and this ridge is called Keels.
But when Thorolf came to Kvenland and met king Faravid, they made them ready for their march, being three hundred of the kings men and a fourth hundred Norsemen. And they went by the upper way over Finmark, and came where the Kiriales were on the fell, the same who had before harried the Kvens. These, when they were aware of the enemy, gathered themselves and advanced to meet them, expecting victory as heretofore. But, on the battle being joined, the Norsemen charged furiously forwards, bearing shields stronger than those of the Kvens; the slaughter turned to be in the Kiriales’ ranks—many fell, some fled. King Faravid and Thorolf took there immense wealth of spoil, and returned to Kvenland, whence afterwards Thorolf and his men came to Finmark, he and Faravid parting in friendship.
-I think though I need to offer peace pipe to Onkko and several drink offerings if we ever meet in person to avoid the leuku. Even *I* know *that* much as a southern dunger.
Nah, im used to tell people that i moved south because my igloo smelted and reindeers fleed to russia 😉
And i cant be trainbrought because i dont live in helsinki, if i live there i would be 🙂
In tampere there is just us and turku 😀
I should ask as heritage my grandfathers leukku with 40cm blade >:)
And if enrique didnt get it whole thing was joking about where we are from, stereotypes and such are endless source of jokes and funny. You probably see that as horrible racism…
Lapin poika lyö outoa turpaan
Se on outo ja arvaamaton
😀
– Lapin poika lyö outoa turpaan
Naaah… I thought that was an Oulu guy or anyone of north Ostrobothnia as they don’t understand this “hyväntahtoinen vittuilu” concept at all, like someone from Joensuu will just make you back with double… Lapplanders are 50/60, more jovial than Ostrobothnians. “Vaasalaiset on homeperseitä”…
Of course Enrique does not believe in stereotypes. As he is not afraid of an “outsider” so he can go open his head all he wants to some Oulu guy… must be racism and xenophobia you run to the hospital collecting your guts, but I rather believe in stereotypes than do that.
“hyväntahtoinen vittuilu” is almost a sport in where i came, its fun 🙂
But as old travel blog says (i dont remember what humour paper it was) said. Visited in kemijärvi, got beating, leaved. 😀
That had some thruth in it, if youre foreign you were in thin ice. But that was 80s and times change.
Cant you make any other statements than racist or populist Enrique?
Im sorry to disappoint you but like some other person above mentioned we like our country safe and we like the fact that we can feel its our country.
Multiculturism is great idea,beatiful concept.But like other concepts it needs modification or it wont work.
Our system cant handle citizens of our own who are unemployed,now we gotta get them more here from another countries cause its right thing to do?
Nah,you can blame that its whitemans or someone else’s fault that Africa is in such a bad state.
Really have things moved forward in South-Africa after apartheid got taken care of?
You can look europe in general,there are various problems in every country cause of immigration that cant be controlled anymore.You know im right,im just not like you.I aint affraid to admit the facts and toss my dreams about multiculturalism to trashcan.
Just look africa,all tribes and countries cant get along in there,how on earth they are supposed to get along and learn the habbits of othern western culture then?
I hope you can come up with an reply that dont use the words racist or populist.
If you must use them then i know you have ran out of arguments long time ago.
Have a good day and keep dreaming!
Yes, evidently the natives in Kemijärvi are very wicked. I think they need some 1000 more unemployed Sudanese brain surgeons top move there to create jobs as Enrique thinks we must do. Don’t they have the old German barrack village still with barbed wires in place they can have a multicultural ghetto so their camels won’t rape the reindeers? Come on now Enrique, tell what your fat politician friends in the TE-keskus think of all this? More workers, more workers, multiculturalism!!!
We have ready place for them, near of mass grave of russians. Its owned by my great grandfathers brother. Just bit redo of fences >:)
Just if nobody appreciates the sarcasm, Finland “needs workers” indeed:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Kemijärvi+demonstrators+boo+and+jeer+at+visiting+Prime+Minister+Vanhanen/1135233618715
Hi Narf, welcome to Migrant Tales and thank you for your comment.
–Cant you make any other statements than racist or populist Enrique?
Populist? Racist? Come on, give me a break. I accept almost everyone’s opinion unless they are outright offensive.
Here is an email I got from an editor in the United States who read the blog:
It’s obvious that you have chosen to point out some sore spots of Finnish life – and that is guaranteed to raise the ire of those who are stuck in their racist ways of thinking – as well as those who may not be racist, but don’t want the so-called “purity” of the Finnish social environment exposed. (Most often politicians and chamber of commerce types.)
What I discovered is that some of the writers are quite clever in how they express their racism: not unlike what many white Americans are doing in regard to Obama. I think it is good to have their statements online with your responses. But it seems like it is getting to be a lot of work for you to constantly rebut those comments.
–Our system cant handle citizens of our own who are unemployed,now we gotta get them more here from another countries cause its right thing to do?
In my opinion, the way Finland has handled the unemployment situation leaves a lot to be desired. Despite having one of the fastest growth rates in the EU, unemployment is still at about 6%. Blame the labor market. It is not working very efficiently.
–Really have things moved forward in South-Africa after apartheid got taken care of?
Yes they have if you compare it with the apartheid period. South Africa has a lot of issues to resolve in the post-apartheid period. Are you suggesting that they were better off when there was apartheid?
–Have a good day and keep dreaming!
Who is dreaming? You who wants Finland to be a Mayberry (see previous comment I posted called Finland of Mayberry) or I who see the challenges facing Finland as a society and country? But then again you could believe that Finland’s population is not suffering from an aging and labor crunch. That will affect your wallet and your standard of living. Now, who is dreaming?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU-NVvLbehg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4dzvUwqPyA&feature=related
Theres two, and i had problems to get new job (elecrtonics) so i see your “need more workers” as insult.
I can show more and from all like construction etc.
– Our system cant handle citizens of our own who are unemployed
Narf – I do not know if you read the HS: but in the NYT monthly supplement there was a story of homeless people, where they live, and even they are multiproblemed people (mental problems self-medicated by substance abuse) we still have 4000 people living in the streets (or in the bush) in the GreaterHelsinkiArea area alone?! And then we have people that adopt kids from 3rd world countries but where is the “adopt a spurgu” movement? Who is your “neighbor” though the word in English is wrong – in Finnish you must love the “one who is near you” – a neighbor is already a stranger.
So I rather would put my energy and efforts into housing all the people in the country, and employing all the people in the country, *before* putting my energy into making a blog of how it is bad for some ethnically othercultured “feeling bad” he is called names and put on welfare. For crying aloud – we give them food and shelter that is more we give our own brethren!!! And still they have some reason to complain?
I contest Enrique to make a blog entry for the 17.10 of the “homeless night” and addressing the “real problems in Finland” (if the Finlandforthought database is fixed I’ll make a politically incorrect posting there on the issue), and reflecting how we must care if some poor Argentinian feels about discrimination if he is called a dago but sleeps inside his belly full. (Yeah, under the belt I know Enrique )
– Here is an email I got from an editor in the United States who read the blog
Here is for the stupid fat american editors who read this blog:
We are no Iraq nor Afghanistan so go kill some “r” which you do better than have an intellectual discussion you imperialists. PS Chavez has bombers, does the Bay of Campeche sound like pigs with lipstick?
DeTant, you sometimes make good points but what is unacceptable is to be offensive. He is not “fat” and far from being an imperialist. Remember, people as individuals are expressing their opinions and taking part in the debate. Do not mix geopolitics into the discussion. We are discussing an issue that appears to interest a lot of people.
— So I rather would put my energy and efforts into housing all the people in the country, and employing all the people in the country, *before* putting my energy into making a blog of how it is bad for some ethnically othercultured “feeling bad” he is called names and put on welfare. For crying aloud – we give them food and shelter that is more we give our own brethren!!! And still they have some reason to complain?
That only talk. Why don’t you act and do something CONCRETE about it? Now you figure out that there’s a housing problem in Finland? Unemployment? Come on, give me a break.
-DeTant, you sometimes make good points but what is unacceptable is to be offensive.
So dont be offensive, your main posts are offensive.
– In my opinion, the way Finland has handled the unemployment situation leaves a lot to be desired. Despite having one of the fastest growth rates in the EU, unemployment is still at about 6%. Blame the labor market. It is not working very efficiently.
Not your opinion only Enrique, I think *both* market, efficiency and the bureaucracy involved… here comes the ra<nt about politicians – I *kind* of wish we had crashed in the 1990’s recession. But then again I see Estonia today and what it was 10 years ago (and I visit the south in Viljandi and not the alcopop cruises )and see the cutthroat mentality in their business and how it has gone up and down and its… scary.
The stagnation of the current Kepu-SDP-Kokoomus coalition of status quo is the most detrimental effect… and we are going towards another recession. No revolution unfortunately, I still need to just wax the rifle under the barn and leave it and the armband (white on one side and red on the other – after all you need to choose the winning side) to rest…
Why, because they don’t fit your world view? I don’t go around using foul language nor insulting cultures.
– but what is unacceptable is to be offensive. He is not “fat” and far from being an imperialist.
“unacceptable” – so hir can go write at their congressman.
–The stagnation of the current Kepu-SDP-Kokoomus coalition of status quo is the most detrimental effect… and we are going towards another recession.
So, who do you think could “fix” the country? I think you should look at the year-long subprime crisis in the US. It has created a lot of turmoil globally. Let’s hope that Finland will not see a recession but it is going to happen in the UK, France, Germany and Spain. As you know, a recession is when we have two consecutive months of negative growth.
– Why don’t you act and do something CONCRETE about it?
How many substance abusing ex-jailbirds have called you a friend?
How many associations promoting help for immigrants have you established?
How many people have you coached through gettin registered, permits, numbers?
How many people have you been translating for in a police interrogation or court?
How many people have you helped through finding a job or finding a job?
How many people have you been stupid enough to pay the deposit of a flat – even 2 out of 3 paid it back?
How many Nigerian students coming to Finland have you housed and fed and gotten them on the track?
How many Estonian… slightly substance abusers have you housed?
Yeah, Enrique – the question is what have *you* done except of WHINED AND COMPLAINED?
– I don’t go around using foul language nor insulting cultures.
Oh, but I do just that. So sorry, my bad 😉
If you did those things, I take my hat off for you. As I mentioned, I like some of your comments, they are very good, but then you go off the wall with some of them. Is it because you feel that someone is imposing something on you? I don’t get it.
However, as you know, I am a journalist. This is my way of promoting debate. It is what writers do best.
– So, who do you think could “fix” the country?
*good* question… *excellent* question… of course your patent answer is to bring in more immigrants and have multiculturalism courses as that is what is the “problem” in Finland.
Well- my view as I said if the “crash” had come in the 1990’s it might have changed a whole lot. What comes to present day… My maternal grandfather – according to a blurb by my grandmother when I was instructed to interview the “elders” in high scool history – she said “when your grandfather came back home from the camp he shat and puked simultaneously” – and after that she looked at my mother who stood like the wife of Lot and clammed up. So I think my answer would not be “revolution” as we were on the recieving end once already.
– I think you should look at the year-long subprime crisis in the US. It has created a lot of turmoil globally.
same shit different package… now we do not have the USSR collapse on us, but a dependency of EU which is worse – and now the arguments with Russia.
– Let’s hope that Finland will not see a recession but it is going to happen in the UK, France, Germany and Spain.
Light a few candles – it is the butterfly effect.
– If you did those things, I take my hat off for you.
Do not do it, as then a pigeon will come and squirt. Be aviophobic and have an aversion to seagulls in the market square.
If you go in places and as I’ve been a “name” as my alter ego and as I am not writing to appease anyone (or need to get published) I am “not a nice person”…
I rather write (or say) such offensive stuff the people burst a vein and kill themselves – instad of me having to do it for them.
I think if we met in person you might be surprised – but then again you would have to come down to us proles…
–*good* question… *excellent* question… of course your patent answer is to bring in more immigrants and have multiculturalism courses as that is what is the “problem” in Finland.
My patent answer is if there are labor shortages that are AFFECTING companies, they should be filled by qualified people. Certainly, it would be a good thing to give unemployed Finns work. However, the labor and economy does not work that way. People just don’t go from operating a paper mill to becoming gardeners or nurses. That is the issue. I think that the government(s) have been very slow to bring foreign workers for two reasons: they don’t want to face up to the fact that some parts of the Finnish economy is suffering from a labor crunch; and 2) there are better countries (easier language, climate etc) to get work. It is incorrect to think that hordes of professional, skilled laborers from Europe want to move to Finland.
— same shit different package… now we do not have the USSR collapse on us, but a dependency of EU which is worse – and now the arguments with Russia.
For better or worse we do live in a globalized world. Stuff that happens on the other side of the world affects us.
– but then you go off the wall with some of them.
I know, I told you I have tried writing myself before… but I don’t do pussyfooting and I shoot at the critiques with a shotgun.
So its a bit hard to get into “constructive criticizm” with me as I happen to be a “multiculturalist” in this sense – its my rules when I write 😀
That’s overkill, DeTant. Try not using weapons such as a shotgun. You can hurt someone. As you have noticed, I disagree with many of the comments but still I allow people with differing opinions to air themselves. That is pretty fair. However, the problem is if someone goes shooting with a “shotgun” a lot more will use the same weapons and then will end up in Hiroshima 1945. That is not the object of the blog.
– My patent answer is if there are labor shortages that are AFFECTING companies, they should be filled by qualified people. Certainly, it would be a good thing to give unemployed Finns work. However, the labor and economy does not work that way
Yeah, see the original objection to your article comes from this pretense is that there is: “The culture of fear of outsiders in Finland”
What *is* “The culture of fear of outsiders buying companies in Finland and outsourcing the production abroad”
If there was a company… in Finland, staying in Finland… like the MasaYards was I would nebver have an inkling of thought if they needed 10 000 workers and 10 000 more there would be *any* objections if you got welders – and their families from Somewheristan and we had Somewheristani restaurants and a Somewheristani worshippingahouse… nobody would object.
Problem is that the dockyard has been transferred to Somewheristan. And the local people sit on the dungheap scattering ash with a ripped cloak – and you say we should have more Somewherestani immigrants? Yeah, right.
That’s overkill, DeTant. Try not using weapons such as a shotgun. You can hurt someone. As you have noticed, I disagree with many of the comments but still I allow people with differing opinions to air themselves. That is pretty fair. However, the problem is if someone goes shooting with a “shotgun” a lot more will use the same weapons and then will end up in Hiroshima 1945. That is not the object of the blog.
By the way, if you write English that well then you must be a real good writer in Finnish. Have you done a lot of writing?
– However, the problem is if someone goes shooting with a “shotgun” a lot more will use the same weapons and then will end up in Hiroshima 1945.
a good nuking clears the air… cold war is just so lame
– and 2) there are better countries (easier language, climate etc) to get work.
so those people complaining should then go there instead of whining and expecting miracles… all Finns have a cousin in Sweden and I’ve been rewriting my CV – as one of the educated ones I can “escape” unlike my relatives who are proles.
— What *is* “The culture of fear of outsiders buying companies in Finland and outsourcing the production abroad”
Yes, outsourcing is a terrible thing. Why do you think companies do that? Because they are interested in economics. The color of money has no nation. However, if we continue to price ourselves from the market, then that is a problem too.
One should address these questions to our politicians. What are they doing to make Finland more competitive and, thereby, ensure that companies won’t have to relocate elsewhere? That, I think, is the crux of the problem.
– However, as you know, I am a journalist. This is my way of promoting debate. It is what writers do best.
I’ll just answer with a movie quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPYJIat0lo
I live there- not with your politicians nor American Editors, I know a few trailer trash rednecks and a mormon missionary – and a metis though.
– One should address these questions to our politicians. What are they doing to make Finland more competitive and, thereby, ensure that companies won’t have to relocate elsewhere? That, I think, is the crux of the problem.
Well you are addressing the problem in this blog as if Finns (like me) are the reason because we are racists and xenophobes. Looks mighty white from my viewpoint.
Q: Why do you think companies do that?
A: The color of money has no nation.
and that is why we should have the “government companies” still… though then we might be our own Kekkoslovakia apart from the EU… 50/60 said M.Nykänen, hindsight is 20/20 always.
– What are they doing to make Finland more competitive and, thereby, ensure that companies won’t have to relocate elsewhere?
make ourselves from a Nordic Welfare Society to a cutthroat 3rd world country with teeming unemployeds ready to work a day with a hot bowl of soup – as Finland was in the 1860’s?
–I live there- not with your politicians nor American Editors, I know a few trailer trash rednecks and a mormon missionary – and a metis though.
Come on, your too negative and absolute in your thoughts.
–Well you are addressing the problem in this blog as if Finns (like me) are the reason because we are racists and xenophobes. Looks mighty white from my viewpoint.
Do you think that these things are problems in Finland?
–make ourselves from a Nordic Welfare Society to a cutthroat 3rd world country with teeming unemployeds ready to work a day with a hot bowl of soup – as Finland was in the 1860’s?
You are exaggerating things. Competition is a good matter. That is what our economy is based on, right? Ok, give me the solution, if you have one. If Finland’s economy cannot adjust — like any other one — then its downhill. Possibly we need, as you said, a revolution where there will be other values rather than money.
“He is not “fat” and far from being an imperialist.”
He is a condecending illiterate merkin who probably can’t even place Finland on a map even he prayed jebus at his NRA meeting. I can at least read and write more than one language rather than a morbidly obese yankee. So inferiors like that do not have any say even they have money and big houses and drive big cars to say anything about me. So if *he* has a problem of what I write he can concentrate on his own country and his own shortcomings than trying to come yap at his betters.
Come on… DeTant. How can you judge a person without knowing him. He gave his honest opinion. You may disagree with that but don’t write him off because of what he thinks.
– Do you think that these things are problems in Finland?
If they are a problem for 2% of the people we need to tackle problems that effect the 98% of the people first – democratically – do we not?
If they were not issues, nobody would visit this blog nor would there be serious questions about it. What am I trying to do with this blog? Just that — address an issue I think is important.
– How can you judge a person without knowing him.
Easily, you do it all the time. I’m alrady a KKK member with a multiple personality in your books.
– He gave his honest opinion.
I gave my “honest” opinion about him… I do not like relayed messages that was actually a call for a holmgang. If he does not show within three days he is not a man.
– You may disagree with that but don’t write him off because of what he thinks.
Americans have a Constipational Amendment XIV “Not to think with a brain”
you are witnessing their elections… go figure
– address an issue I think is important.
Well I say you are just whining and complaining of a non-issue that has as much significance as a fy’s fart in the sahara desert… but there *is* discrimination, racism and xenophobia and discrimination and racist police and bureaucrats and no quarter given to those “different” in Finland….
…but that is one of the problems we should tackle once we have taken care of the major issues and problems…
The Lady doth make too much noise of herself.
–I’m alrady a KKK member with a multiple personality in your books.
Come on, DeTant cut it out.
–I gave my “honest” opinion about him… I do not like relayed messages that was actually a call for a holmgang. If he does not show within three days he is not a man.
Probably the difference is that Finland has not had the same type of racial problems. This means that people who suffered because of it and lived through it can spot the same things some people are saying in this blog what was argued in the 1960s in the United States. Probably some think that it is ok to be a bigot because “it is the Finnish way.” But mark my words, some people will get hep to it like in other parts where it WAS and still IS a problem. Look at the civil rights movement in the US. Martin Luther King, John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X they were all living in a country that was many times in worst shape back then.
Maybe that is the problem. People don’t know better.
–Theres two, and i had problems to get new job (elecrtonics) so i see your “need more workers” as insult.
An insult? Why don’t write to the government? It would be more effective.
-An insult? Why don’t write to the government? It would be more effective.
I already did, and yes i vote. Now i can tell truth for people like you.
– Probably the difference is that Finland has not had the same type of racial problems. This means that people who suffered because of it and lived through it can spot the same things some people are saying in this blog what was argued in the 1960s in the United States.
Actualy i claim Finland now is like as UK in the 1960’s… it was “life on mars” and were changing… but I still resist any change *told* at me..
– An insult? Why don’t write to the government? It would be more effective.
No, we need machine guns to be efective – “writing to government” is a sign of being a retard
– Probably the difference is that Finland has not had the same type of racial problems.
– And WE DO NOT WANT THESE PROBLEMS – they themselves in America imported slaves, we did not. So they themselves in America can as well STFU and take care of their own emancipation problem in Liberia and afther they show how all this is good and fine, then the fat idiots of america can come and be better than us here in the north.
–No, we need machine guns to be efective – “writing to government” is a sign of being a retard
Then, run for office.
– And WE DO NOT WANT THESE PROBLEMS – they themselves in America imported slaves, we did not. So they themselves in America can as well STFU and take care of their own emancipation problem in Liberia and afther they show how all this is good and fine, then the fat idiots of america can come and be better than us here in the north.
With respect to immigrants… but if you look at Russia and Sweden, for some Finns it is pretty hard to stomach. We have not had the same problems as the US; we have had problems with our neighbors. So the pillars of hatred are there.
–I already did, and yes i vote. Now i can tell truth for people like you.
Go right ahead and tell me and the world your “truth.”
–Actualy i claim Finland now is like as UK in the 1960’s… it was “life on mars” and were changing… but I still resist any change *told* at me..
Hey, once again, nobody is forcing anything on you.
– Hey, once again, nobody is forcing anything on you.
You and your “f” american editors wit their political correctness “s” and “f” politician friends “needing workers” have this “multiculturalism” agenda you are trying to force-feed to me. You know what, my cousins, these backwards unilingual hicks, I’ll stop trying to civilize them. I’ll let them be “multicultural” as well. What they see is your “working immigrants” driving with their tax-free cars I’ll let them pour sugar into their tanks and they see your “unemployed immigrants” in the welfare queue getting more benefits than they – I’ll just let them kick their heads in as that is what you and your fat friends want this country to get into. Yeah, I’ll quit being the voice of reason, lets become multiculturalists.
– Then, run for office.
Sorry, I am unable to become a criminal.
–You and your “f” american editors wit their political correctness “s” and “f” politician friends “needing workers” have this “multiculturalism” agenda you are trying to force-feed to me.
Nobody is force feeding you. Is that the way you interpret when people bring forth their arguments in a civil manner? What you are proposing is that nobody has the right to question anything in Finland, especially if that person has a different opinion. That is not how Finland works.
–Sorry, I am unable to become a criminal.
Then just grin and bear it.
– What you are proposing is that nobody has the right to question anything in Finland,
People who are locals an *understand* the “anything”… people who do not live here or are in the position they can pack up their bags and leave are the last ones I wish to hear opinions from. *I* intend to live here as this is *my* home. Do if you don’t like it here leave.
– Nobody is force feeding you. Is that the way you interpret when people bring forth their arguments in a civil manner?
Politicians bowing to the money bring forth their agendas in a “civil manner” and I despise anything coming from those globalization sycophants and catamites of industry.
– Then just grin and bear it.
Which I do and what you and all the rest of the foreigners also should do instead of whining of xenophobia and racism.
DeTant, I call a spade a spade, full stop. And I do not have to leave — you say you don’t like to impose anything. What are you doing? Wow… sycophants and catamites… pretty colorful nouns you use. Aren’t you whining right now?
–You and your “f” american editors
Ohh Enrique, did your morbidly obese friends go on a diet? You know they don’t get any thinner me not calling them a weight problem. You know as a friend you should tell they would benefit hauling their double-wide ass to work with a bicyle and foot but we still need to wait for gas to cost 9 bucks a gallon as it does here. Heard of “public transport” you “la”? Come call me a racist one more time you illiterate who bought your degree in woman studies off a cereal box. Go torture someone in Guantanamo and call me a racist you hypocrite width challenged imperialist. Free Willy!
– DeTant, I call a spade a spade, full stop. And I do not have to leave — you say you don’t like to impose anything. What are you doing? Wow… sycophants and catamites… pretty colorful nouns you use. Aren’t you whining right now?
So do I. maybe I whack someone with a spade too, but then thats the job of a sexton. Know any? Now thats one dead-end job. No you do not have to leave, as you can leech money from a shelter job writing anti-Finland postings as we must confess, the Finns have such a low self-esteem they want to read bad things about themselves. I’m just a glitch in the matrix, soon I’ll swallow the blue pill and be gone with. Or green liquid, a bottle of absinthe for the winter. No, the nuns were quite dressed in drab when I went to school to learn my English, but I write with a primitive fear of someone whacking me over the fingers with a poker if my grammar is not impeccable. Fancy words yes, such as your American editor friends can not use as their semi-illiterate readership won’t understand but a quite niggardly vocabulary.
And yes I am whining – after all I live in the worst racist xenophobic hellhole imaginable on earth. Just yesterday in my local we discussed this wickedness with an Indian and a Ghanian and two Estonians. Damn I should really watch who I speak with – the foreign whine is contagious!
–So do I. maybe I whack someone with a spade too, but then thats the job of a sexton. Know any? Now thats one dead-end job. No you do not have to leave, as you can leech money from a shelter job writing anti-Finland postings as we must confess, the Finns have such a low self-esteem they want to read bad things about themselves.
Why do you get personal?
–No, the nuns were quite dressed in drab when I went to school to learn my English, but I write with a primitive fear of someone whacking me over the fingers with a poker if my grammar is not impeccable.
I went to a Catholic school. I know what you mean.
–Damn I should really watch who I speak with – the foreign whine is contagious!
Do they whine or do they point out things to you? It takes a lot of guts to say things that some people do not want to hear. It is a bad argument strategy when you start belittling their arguments.
–Come call me a racist one more time you illiterate who bought your degree in woman studies off a cereal box. Go torture someone in Guantanamo and call me a racist you hypocrite width challenged imperialist.
Do you think these types of comments help? It shows a lot of frustration.
– Do they whine or do they point out things to you?
Well, “pointing out things” is a two way street. like the climate and the rain and tha crap summer we’ve had this year. You can not change the weather. I can not change the weather. “Pointing out” it rains when I come in drenched in a mackintosh – *reminding me* it rains as if I hadn’t noticed… thats whining. Its better to not remind people it rains as inside is warm and cozy for the moment and then you need to go out again. If you cannot change things it is no use of whining about them as it is feeding your own discontent. And annoying everyone else. Discuss umbrellas instead – something to *fix* the problem rather than whine over the climate.
And then reading the news of the hurricane season and “Ike” I am not complaining of the rain at all.
– Why do you get personal?
Why do you hate Finland?
– Do you think these types of comments help? It shows a lot of frustration.
Do you think it would be better to show frustration by eating a can of beans and going to fart in front of the cruise ships in the harbor? Some poor pink-haired old lady from Florida doesn’t realise it is her pension fund dictating the unemployment in Finland, but lets give her a hot patootie just to make a point.
–Why do you hate Finland?
That’s throwing a low punch.
–And then reading the news of the hurricane season and “Ike” I am not complaining of the rain at all.
The weather is a different thing than living in a society. There are certain things you can change. The weather, well, that’s another story. But look on the bright side. Rainy summer means a lot of mushrooms.
– That’s throwing a low punch.
marquis of Mayberry rules 😉
– The weather is a different thing than living in a society. There are certain things you can change.
And theres certain things you can not…
–marquis of Mayberry rules
You are sometimes SO funny.
–And theres certain things you can not…
When it comes to the weather, no. When it comes to building bridges between cultures, definitely yes.
For the record, I am not one of the baby-boom generation. I am somewhere between 20 and 40 years.
Not lowest end of education either, got my papers and qualifications for jobs in software engineering field.
Like to travel, have had friends in ranks of immigrants and in other countries, dated foreign girl (distance killed that one but oh well)… I have no problems with foreigners or immigrants.
I also like to study things.
And that is why I find your dream of “multiculturalism” to be one that MUST be killed and buried as soon as possible Enrique. You are idealist, head in clouds and rose red glasses firmly on face. I am realist.
I look around at your “multicultural” heavens, and see segregation, slums, crime and lack of social cohesion. Things that kill society, and when society dies so does die nation.
Why? Because lack of cohesion and unity leads to friction and conflict. It starts small, one guy wanting burkha for all women and another desiring miniskirts. Other seeing miniskirt as invitation to rape. Mostly small things though, but they pile up.
They create situation of small, segregated communities which live by principles foreign to nation in question. And then they try to push them outwards, to further their comfort zone. Natives will react like every native has always reacted to attempt to force some foreign ways to them. Resist. First quietly, then increasingly vocally. Eventually through force of arms if need be.
Why? Because cultures are not made to fit nicely together. They clash, fight and seek dominance. It is built to human psyche and social structure. Those like me and those not like me. This is not about individuals, individuals are nice. This is about larger picture, one which you Enrique continuously fail to see. You just look at little, individual immigrant. I look at whole effect of unintegrated immigrants moving in and demanding things. Or expecting things.
If they are not integrated, it means they are going to stick together to form their little ethnically pure areas. Which eventually tend to turn into slums. And integration to society does not mean changing that society. Enrique, what you have to realise is that Finnish society is not like Argentinian hodgepodge of this and that built on recent corpses of natives.
This is society and people which dates back more centuries than yours. There were Finns in Finnish society when highest form of technology in Argentina was piece of flint. Finnish society has changed, but it has changed by Finns overall. Swedes have had most success in forcing change on Finns. But that too is old history. Swedish ways and language are slowly fading.
We have our own society, now we also have country to call our own. We do not want to turn it into horrible mess of different conflicting cultural influences and traditions. Doing so would always destroy something from OUR culture. You say our national food is pizza. Not actually, we like to eat pizza but we still connect with our traditional foods. If pizza were to really become national food, Finnish culture would have lost something of it’s uniqueness. To be replaced by bland copy taken from Italian culture.
Is that enriching? No, it is destruction. You do not understand this, Enqrique, because you were not born in society with established and uniform culture and society. You think that chaos and horrible mess are normal and natural.
They are not. They kill society. That is why I oppose your idealistic idea of multiculturalism. That is why I support idea of “In Finland, do it the Finnish way”.
Multiculturalism goes right there with anarchism and communism in pretty ideals which fail to have any grounding on reality.
I once asked self professed anarchist to provide stable, large and long term anarchist societies. He failed. I asked you to provide stable, safe multicultural societies without social problems due to it. You failed.
– Finland’s tumultuous history in the previous century with its eastern neighbor Russia has kept such fears alive to date.
And because of some odd reasons the fears are kept alive by Russians themselves.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29784
Dimitri Medvedev, president of Russia:
“The protection of life and dignity of Russian citizens “no matter where they live” is an absolute priority”
BTW heres an interesting piece regarding the Finnish history and the national hangups
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/British+professor+takes+on+Finnish+national+myths/1135221427726
though I will just stare at him with a weird look him saying “Finnish is easy”.
–though I will just stare at him with a weird look him saying “Finnish is easy”.
This is a good example that the Finnish language and culture are not that difficult to learn and master. Probably Finns should start to say that they are not that different from others. A good attitude can work wonders.
So how about you telling immigrants to stop bitching and start learning?
Or is it unreasonable to expect person to integrate into society they move into?