By Enrique Tessieri
As Anders Breivik,who killed 77 people on July 22 on his crusade against multiculturalism, takes the stand and speaks out against immigration and Islam the more damage he inflicts on anti-immigration parties in the Nordic region like the Perussuomalaiset (PS). After his rampage in Norway, nothing was ever the same for parties like the PS because Breivik put them on the defensive.
Writes the BBC: “Breivik’s comments have ranged from vehement criticisms of liberalism and multiculturalism to claims that he ‘supports the model in South Korea and Japan.'”
Breivik was quoted by the BBC as telling the court he had “carried out the most spectacular and sophisticated attack on Europe since World War II” and would do it again.
Certainly far-right anti-immigration PS MP Jussi Halla-aho would have wished that Breivik would have never existed. He if anyone has done more damage to Halla-aho’s and his Counter-Jihadists’ rhetoric.
In a story published today Migrant Tales writes: “He [Halla-aho] says on the [Tom Enbuske talk] show that Anders Breivik, the Norwegian mass killer is a mentally ill lone wolf, despite the fact that he quoted him in his anti-Islam manifesto. Certainly it’s convenient for Halla-aho to single out Breivik as a madman because it permits him to wash his hands of the probable impact his xenophobic rhetoric may have on others [like Breivik].”
You don’t have too bright to grasp that if you let out a social ill like racism and feed it with your hate it’s going to hit back one day.
That is exactly what Breivik did.
He is no madman nor loan wolf but a shameful anti-social miscreation our society gave birth to.
I want everyone to go and check out how Fins are praising and glorifying Breivik of what he did to those innocent children, im affraid Finland has become a place where nazism is a norm. So check this link out. Breivik has a become a hero in Finland.
http://portti.iltalehti.fi/keskustelu//showthread.php?t=748936&page=2
“want everyone to go and check out how Fins are praising and glorifying Breivik of what he did to those innocent children, im affraid Finland has become a place where nazism is a norm.”
Yeah, I checked it and noticed immediately that you want to misinterpret what has been said. The title even gives you clues you think you couldn’t miss:
“Breivikin teko väärä mutta miehen puheet totta”
So, let’s break it down if your Finnish is not good enough. There’s two claims there, two points.
One) What Breivik did was wrong
Two) Breivik was right in his talks (about the negative aspects of multiculturalism)
If you can’t see the difference in these clearly separate things, well, I don’t know if there is anything to do about that. So you keep believing that the Nazism is a norm in Finland. It’s totally unnecessary like I explained but you only hurt yourself with that kind of thinking if you live with those kinds of fears of the society around you.
Hay Elven i think you’re sick i the head just like breivik and you need to see a psychologist before you start killing people like him.
D4R, Elven proves you wrong and corrects your mistakes, and you start insulting him?
It’s pretty clear who is the less intelligent.
“Hay Elven i think you’re sick i the head just like breivik and you need to see a psychologist before you start killing people like him.”
I have no trouble believing that *you* think so. After all we all have seen many times how good a grasp you have of reality. And we have seen your capabilities in a civilized discussion which consists of making arguments. You are simply in a wrong weight class, so instead of making counter arguments you insult people.
Norway made a big scum of themselves. Not even in court was he allowed to speak. Finland is exactly the same shit
Listen you pair of beauty queens (Anonymous and Elven), it’s not an intelligence test. This is a debate that affects people directly, and D4R is directly affected. If you can’t contextualise that piece of information to help you make sense of what he’s saying to you, then don’t blame him for YOUR lack of intelligence, and definitely don’t stand on your thrones and pass out the sweets to yourselves on the basis of you own ignorances!
Väinämöinen
Breivik did not ‘earn’ an opportunity to use the court system to further spread his propoganda. He is in court so that they can decide his guilt and then his punishment. As his guilt is pretty much a foregone conclusion, this really is a matter of procedure.
Your comment is quite disgusting. I think you should be banned from this blog for that. I shall discuss it with the other editors.
r u out of your sense Mark?
How can you punish someone without hearing him? Sounds like Soviet…
Väinämöinen
I have not said that he cannot speak. However, that is altogether different to giving him a political platform, which you seem rather disappointed about. He’s there to answer for his crimes and to be punished accordingly.
The facts of the case are not disputed. What is disputed is his state of mind. At the same time, it is more than clear that he wants to use this ‘court appearance’ as a platform to spread his views. That seems like a perverse kind of reward and one I’m sure the court is doing everything they can to avoid.
Are you going to turn this into some kind of ‘free speech issue’?
Väinämöinen
It was quite an indulgence to allow this “witness” to read out a written statement as oral testimony to the court. Criminal proceedings are not a platform for grandstanding, but for establishing the facts of the alleged offence.
You are correct (there’s a first!) in pointing out that Finland has similar rules of evidence governing court proceedings (section 32 of chapter 17 of the Procedural Code). Witnesses are only supposed to consult written notes as an occasional aide memoire.
Breivik was permitted to read his statement in full. His thought processes are chillingly similar to those of some of the regular commenters here.
Mark
it is what it is about. I suppose you did not read the manifest, it is consistent and detailed text. There you will get the answers for his frustrations.
Väinämöinen
What is ‘it’ all about? I will not put his complaints in the same breath as the complaint he is now answering for taking the lives of 77 people, many of them children. There is absolutely no equivalence and no sense that justice needs to understand his ‘complaint’ to decide his guilt. This is symptomatic of the utter degradation of fascism, that it assumes that ‘evil’ is necessary to satisfy its over inflated sense of grievance.
justicedemon
he was interrupted
http://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/2012041715463197_ul.shtml
“This is a debate that affects people directly, and D4R is directly affected.”
And I’m not when he says “how Fins are praising and glorifying Breivik of what he did to those innocent children” and when “Finland has become a place where nazism is a norm”?
Elven
Okay, so be smart and replace ‘Finland’ with ‘some elements of Finland’ and ‘Finns’ with ‘some Finns’. When you do, you will realise that he is saying something important and something that you should be concerned about too. Or are you so obsessed with trying to show that it’s really HIM (and us for that matter) that are the racists, that you cannot even begin to see the argument he is trying to make or what he is pointing out?
Anyhow, on past evidence, when you ask D4R if he really means ‘All Finns’, he is very quick to admit that he has been careless. He is refreshingly honest in this regard. Can I say the same about other commentators in this blog saying negative things about particular groups? Not really.
well, keep on inventing stories. The manifest, the paper not the deed.
What was the cause for the manifest? You are just spitting to left and right without knowing a bit
Väinämöinen
You are incoherent!
And, Mark, if I’m called “sick i the head just like breivik” and that I “need to see a psychologist” before I “start killing people like him”, does it not give me a moral high ground? Was that not a very stupid thing to say or what? And what did you do? You defended him and insulted me because defending myself.
Just tell me, why don’t you comdemn D4R for calling me sick like a mass murderer? Why did you take his side? That would be so interesting to here.
Yeah, I really think I have the right to judge D4R’s intelligence because of the stupidiest things he said.
Elven
On that small point, probably yes, but in the big scheme of things? There is just a whole lot more going on here. Breivik adopted a very practical response to the whole narrative that says that Europe is engaged in a cultural and political war with Islam. That narrative is alive and well in Finland and you do a good job of giving it a free ride while going after us for daring to suggest racism is an issue in Finland. Not only that, but your posts have personally degraded Muslims and Africans.
I think D4R is understandably taking this personally. His is an honest reaction. Yes, he goes over the top sometimes. We probably all do in this debate, let’s be honest. Of all of us arguing here, he is probably affected most. So, are you going to reassure him, or are you going to take the moral high ground, and denigrate him some more?
“If you can’t contextualise that piece of information to help you make sense of what he’s saying to you, then don’t blame him for YOUR lack of intelligence”
Care to point out the information in his words? “Hay Elven i think you’re sick i the head just like breivik and you need to see a psychologist before you start killing people like him.”
Where’s the information? Do you even know what information means? It certainly is not some random paranoid foaming in the mouth. Just tell me or continue to show your bias in proportions I didn’t think were even possible.
Elven
Do I know what information is? Hmm, let me see, a first class honours degree in communication studies! Yep, I think I do!
Väinämöinen
Just as you would be in Finland if you had been granted a very special indulgence based on a promise to speak for only 30 minutes, and then you continued for more than an hour:
Now I can’t speak for Norwegian law, but – as explained above – this would be substantial exercise of the court’s evidentiary discretion in Finland.
“On that small point, probably yes, but in the big scheme of things?”
Fascinating. Tell me more. So it’s okay to use the wording like his if you think about the big scheme? Okay, I’m really thinking it, so would it be okay for me to start using that kinds of words? I don’t think so but you must to remain consistent.
“I think D4R is understandably taking this personally.”
I haven’t degraded them in any way. You know there’s a point in life where you just can’t blame everybody else about the way they see you. And I haven’t even really talked about my views, just referred to statistics and the way the Muslim world markets itself to the rest of the world. Why do you treat D4R like a child? Is he a child? Anyways, it’s really flattering that you expect more from me than him and because that allow him to take things more personally than me. So thank for the compliment.
“Okay, so be smart and replace ‘Finland’ with ‘some elements of Finland’ and ‘Finns’ with ‘some Finns’.”
You do realize we live in a country where leaving those out when talking about *minorities* would get you to court? And you do realize if some Hommaforum member said anything in D4R’s style you would not be so understanding? Heck, you don’t even are understanding if someone doesn’t leave them out if they are not talking about the majority. Double standards is your game. It’s a pity really. In the other thread there was a little sign of hope that you can speak about things in a civilized way but now you backing up the guy labeling the Finns as nazis and me as sick as the mass murderer. (You guys even remembering that Breivik was not a Finn? Just checking.) Yeah, now we go back to the position where I just see I can’t reason with people who don’t believe in reason.
You went to ridiculous lengths to explain it all better. This is a talk about Breivik. He killed natives. Is D4R more Norwegian than me? He talked about people’s attitutes here accusing them of nazism, is he more Finnish than me? Double standards. But yeah, as was expected.
You know in your heart that you are defending his totally unacceptable behavior because you see him as one of you and you see me as “one of them”. The irony of it all considering what you say you are all about in this blog! 😀
Where have I said I think it’s okay? I said that if you ask D4R about it properly, then you will probably get an answer that he doesn’t mean all Finns.
This is where you really don’t take responsibility for the consequences of your anti-Islamic immigrant stance. It is clearly degrading to Muslims or Africans.
Yep, that old chestnut again.
Probably not! But I’m not defending D4R here, I’m merely saying that you are using this as a distraction from what he’s actually saying. And in that sense, I am fair to both sides of this argument. If I see idiots like you making points and degrading entire groups, I will validate your point as much as I can as well as point out your bigotry. In that I am fairly consistent. But look, Elven, you still didn’t take the point did you – be smart.
Thank you for the usual patronising. Like I said, just because I haven’t condemned it doesn’t mean I think it’s okay. But hey, feel free to try to use what I don’t say as a way to attack my integrity, much like the false accusation of calling you a racist the other day….yawn!!!
Who is this ‘we’? So, address D4R’s point – is there any similarity to Nazism? And by that, I mean the ideology used towards immigrants? I think you’ll find there are great similarities in the Islamaphobia you indulge and the anti-semiticism of the Nazis.
I’m not defending it, Elven.
“Hmm, let me see, a first class honours degree in communication studies”
From the Red University of Tampere, I presume? Hopefully not because that is worth… um… a penny? Like you see from our beloved media showing their expertise.
What did they teach you when you couldn’t communicate your answer now and decised to just claim that you knew what it is. If you knew about information then you could separate it from for example data like random crazy talk.
Elven
😀 I see you tried to diminish my qualification. Nope, a good UK university. I was also accepted into LSE for post-grad studies, so I’m happy that my communication talents are adequate enough.
I learned that this kind of sentence you produced above would be considered incoherent. 😀 😀
So, Elven, what are your qualifications in regard to ‘communication’?
Anonymous: D4R, Elven proves you wrong and corrects your mistakes, and you start insulting him?
It’s pretty clear who is the less intelligent.
Oh yeah let me guess, i am less intelligent to you because i am Black right? let me guess again, you’re a Finn? So him elven praising breivik and me condemning him for that to you makes me unintelligent right? maybe you should check your intelligence Mr.
Elven archer: I have no trouble believing that *you* think so. After all we all have seen many times how good a grasp you have of reality. And we have seen your capabilities in a civilized discussion which consists of making arguments. You are simply in a wrong weight class, so instead of making counter arguments you insult people.
‘
You see, your comments to me is bursting with superiority, you think you have superiority over me because, one I am a Somalian a black african, two, to you Finns in your country I am looked as something who isn’t Human, who’se poor and not worthy of attention, who’se uncivilized according to you and never able to be part of your so called “classes” that you and other Finns have stablished for yourself. so, to you i am a low person already without knowing me, so typical of a nowaday Finn, shame on Elvin, maybe you need a humanity lesson.
Elven archer: And I haven’t even really talked about my views, just referred to statistics and the way the Muslim world markets itself to the rest of the world.
Why don’t you talk about your views about us then, go ahead tell me what you think about us?
Elven, you seem to be concerned about the rep of Finnish people, so how are you representing them in the eyes of foreigners in this blog? care to tell me that.
Elven archer: And I haven’t even really talked about my views, just referred to statistics and the way the Muslim world markets itself to the rest of the world.
Why don’t you talk about your views about us then, go ahead tell me what you think about us?
sorry correction, why don’t you talk about your views of us?
Elven archer: Why do you treat D4R like a child? Is he a child?
I will not tolerate anymore insult from you, i ask you to stop insulting, this is a grown men debate so i hope you start behaving like an adult
Elven archer: You do realize we live in a country where leaving those out when talking about *minorities* would get you to court? And you do realize if some Hommaforum member said anything in D4R’s style you would not be so understanding? Heck, you don’t even are understanding if someone doesn’t leave them out if they are not talking about the majority. Double standards is your game. It’s a pity really. In the other thread there was a little sign of hope that you can speak about things in a civilized way but now you backing up the guy labeling the Finns as nazis and me as sick as the mass murderer. (You guys even remembering that Breivik was not a Finn? Just checking.) Yeah, now we go back to the position where I just see I can’t reason with people who don’t believe in reason.
‘
Have i ever degraded the caucasian race? have i ever said something negative about Finnish peoples about how they look or dress or talk?no, never, but if i go to Hommaforum, there they keep degradig my culture, my race, my intelligence, my everything, so i don’t understand why’re you comparing me to your >Homaforum gangsters, im not the one who’se hating, it’s YOU GUYS, I am married to a Finn, i have a normal Finnish friends who’re really dear to me, AND NO, NOT ALL FINS ARE RACIST, again i have to repeat myself for you, what’s with some of you guys understanding?
Elvin, ofcourse you will get in to court if you start threatening the lifes of the minorities, they too are humans remember?
“Oh yeah let me guess, i am less intelligent to you because i am Black right?”
No, you insult people saying they are “sick like breivik” and that they “need to see a psychologist before” they “start killing people”. Don’t you see anything wrong in saying things like that? How do you expect people treat you after you say things like that to them?
And on top of that you seem to have no problem playing that martyr card implying that others are racist too because they object to you calling someone “sick like breivik”.
“So him elven praising breivik and me condemning him for that to you makes me unintelligent right?”
I have not expressed any opinions of Breivik. You are talking about the things that simply are not there! This is madness and getting a little scary actually. I don’t want to upset anyone’s mental state even if it’s all in his head.
Elven archer: You went to ridiculous lengths to explain it all better. This is a talk about Breivik. He killed natives. Is D4R more Norwegian than me? He talked about people’s attitutes here accusing them of nazism, is he more Finnish than me? Double standards. But yeah, as was expected.
LoL
D4R: “have i ever said something negative about Finnish peoples about how they look or dress or talk?”
D4R: “I want everyone to go and check out how Fins are praising and glorifying Breivik of what he did to those innocent children, im affraid Finland has become a place where nazism is a norm.”
Well, certainly you have said how they act.
D4R: “I will not tolerate anymore insult from you, i ask you to stop insulting, this is a grown men debate so i hope you start behaving like an adult”
Says the grown man you said this to me:
“Hay Elven i think you’re sick i the head just like breivik and you need to see a psychologist before you start killing people like him.”
Very mature, indeed.
D4R: “You see, your comments to me is bursting with superiority, you think you have superiority over me because, one I am a Somalian a black african, two, to you Finns in your country I am looked as something who isn’t Human, who’se poor and not worthy of attention, who’se uncivilized according to you and never able to be part of your so called “classes” that you and other Finns have stablished for yourself. so, to you i am a low person already without knowing me, so typical of a nowaday Finn, shame on Elvin, maybe you need a humanity lesson.”
I understand it’s pointless to respond to your paranoia but really, man, get a grip. I have not said, implied or thought anything you claimed. This gives a whole new perspective to the study mentioned just a while ago about people experiencing racism in Finland. What has happened in this thread shows that one’s experiences are not always the same as what happened. They can be totally out of this reality.
The things you said are all in your head. I have never said anything like that. What gives you the right to say awful things and put them in somebody else’s name?
Elven
Hmmm….let’s see now, a couple of days ago Elven accused Mark of being a racist, a fascist, and a bigot, and gave no evidence. Not only that, but he accused Mark of calling him a racist, when he did not such thing. The only thing Mark confused was that Elven is always careful to attack Muslims in Finland and not by name the largest group of Muslims in Finland, which is Somalis. No mention of the word ‘racist’. An apology from Elven? NOPE. Not even close. 😀 😀
I don’t usually write here, but this time I wanted to contribute little bit.
I have to admit that I have to take Elven’s side on this debate. I haven’t read all his texts in MT, but at least in this discussion he has behaved much better than D4R. EA did explain his views detailed and politely in the second message, but what he gets: insults. If EA has said something bad about muslims/somalis in some other blog, remember this (which is said multiple times in MT): Two bads don’t make one good.
The most disappointing behavior is received from Mark, because I have always thought he is usually smart and quite neutral in MT discussions, even he is clearly in “pro-multiculturalism”- camp (if you have to put the people in pro- and anti-multiculturalism groups). This time he clearly takes D4R side, even his behavior is more than unacceptable.
I really suggest D4R would first think what he posts, because this kind of behavior actually hurts the (good) cause more than it helps.
Joonas
Thanks for your comment. I will take this into account in the future, as I think you offered a balanced opinion [edit: about me at least].
“This is where you really don’t take responsibility for the consequences of your anti-Islamic immigrant stance. It is clearly degrading to Muslims or Africans.”
Africans? That I don’t get at all. What does that have to do with anything?
I don’t like the values or beliefs in Islam. So what? I don’t like most or all of the religions out there. The religions are basically just ideas. Certainly the ideas can be criticized. You see that a bad thing, I don’t.
“But I’m not defending D4R here, I’m merely saying that you are using this as a distraction from what he’s actually saying.”
You fooled me alright:
“If you can’t contextualise that piece of information to help you make sense of what he’s saying to you, then don’t blame him for YOUR lack of intelligence”
“I think D4R is understandably taking this personally. His is an honest reaction. Yes, he goes over the top sometimes. We probably all do in this debate, let’s be honest. Of all of us arguing here, he is probably affected most.”
Yeah, I have trouble contextualizing when I’m called sick in the head like a mass murderer and so on. But I’m glad that you were not defending him in any way.
And what is he saying? That Nazism is a norm in Finland and that I’m sick and racist and so on? He has not backed up a bit. He just goes on and on with the same accusations. But hey, maybe I’m not contextualizing it right?
“If I see idiots like you making points and degrading entire groups, I will validate your point as much as I can as well as point out your bigotry.”
Geez, thanks. Idiots like me? That’s so nice. I find the atmosphere in this blog so friendly.
“So, address D4R’s point – is there any similarity to Nazism?”
As a norm in Finland? I think the burden of proof is not mine in this matter. If you or him shows the norm we’ll talk then.
Joonas, thanks. Your comment was nice in this alternate reality I have been sucked into.
Elven
Two days ago, you offered this as evidence that Muslims committed more crime [yep, I know, you didn’t state it explicitly….yawn!]
So, you are not degrading Africans by offering this statistic as somehow a defining feature of the immigration debate in Finland?
Total bollocks. I personally have suffered because of religion, but I’m not foolish enough to think that that suffering completely negates all the positive things done in the name of religion. Religion should and must be held in critical gaze. But what you are doing is not critiquing religion. Not even close. What you are doing is devising arguments to discriminate against religious people, and that’s a whole different ball game, sonny boy!
To which you contribute more than your share, thus adequately reflecting your talents, no doubt.
Mark
As you said yourself: we all go over the top sometimes 😉 so, no worries. You have usually valid opinions.
“Hmmm….let’s see now, a couple of days ago Elven accused Mark of being a racist, a fascist, and a bigot, and gave no evidence.”
Is the thing here contagious? What are you doing?
“Not only that, but he accused Mark of calling him a racist, when he did not such thing. The only thing Mark confused was that Elven is always careful to attack Muslims in Finland and not by name the largest group of Muslims in Finland, which is Somalis. No mention of the word ‘racist’. An apology from Elven? NOPE. Not even close.”
Ooookaayyyy…. easy there, big fellow.
Alright. I’m out of this mad house. If lying is a norm here, like you can easily deduct from the above, I don’t want any part of it. You are in so deep in your ideology that I don’t think I really even can understand it. Have fun! Go nuts. Label people. Call them Nazis and racists and mass murderers. What do I care. Paint a pretty picture of the immigrants in Finland with your example. Oh my days….
Joonas
D4R needs to be more careful in his debating and not rising to personal baiting. If you look at EA’s history in this blog, you will see that he is very passive aggressive in his responses and subtly distorts what people say as a way to devise a stick to beat them with.
For example:
D4R originally wrote:
When someone usually writes that one is ‘afraid something is happening’, there is an element of self-doubt; it’s not taken as a literal statement that one ‘believes Finland has become a place where Nazism is the norm’, but rather that one is afraid that it is becoming that. However, Elven was very quick to remove this subtlety and imply that D4R thought this as a firm conviction:
Not only that, but when he introduces the ‘fear’ element, he has changed the way that it was originally used to mean something quite different, and in fact quite insulting. He is saying that D4R is simply afraid of the society around him, that he’s just paranoid. Quite insulting, if you ask me.
D4R’s link was to a host of comments, some of which did glorify Breivik, but EA decided rather to suggest that D4R was ‘reading into’ only the first comment made, which talks about Finns becoming a minority and Islam becoming the majority religion. This comment alone is insulting to Muslims, but there is no respect for religious people really. I mean, given the very small number of Muslims in Finland, this really is hysteria, and yet it is THIS that becomes the focus of debate, and not the the fact that a man took this ‘war of cultures’ so literally that he cold-bloodedly murdered 77 people, many of them children. And yet EA wants to turn that morality on its arse and rather present D4R’s understandable outrage into some kind of criticism of all immigrants who claim racism when there isn’t any.
I find EA’s contributions to be extremely manipulative, distorting of the debate and inherently disrespectful, even from the very first response, so I would probably disagree with you that EA was being polite. I think he was being provocative, as usual.
However, your point about not defending D4R when he starts to go over the top is a valid one. I have pulled D4R up before about being careless in his writing, and he has taken that criticism in good faith. While i don’t condone that kind of careless writing, I nevertheless think it is really important to let people have an ‘honest response to being degraded, even if that response is itself obviously filled with anger, bitterness and generalisations.
Suggesting that D4R always has to process this anger is not fair. Also, I think that it makes the debate too cerebral. EA is not directly affected by this debate, and D4R is. I think that is crucial to keep in mind. Not because it means I want to defend his remarks that appear to bigoted, but because we must understand that this debate is an emotional attack, and that like it or not, many people’s response to this kind of attack is to get angry, and that is and should be validated.
But validation should not be seen to be a justification of bad behaviour, and on that point, I think I have to be more careful in future.
Elven
There was silence for a moment….then, YIPEEEE!
Okay, Elven, which part was a lie?
Was it this that you wrote three days ago?
and then this, two days ago:
Or how about this defence that you put up?
You couldn’t offer any evidence that I had called you a racist.
Yep, Elven, it’s all lies!! 😀 Sure!
Alright, just a quick remark because your mastery of communication obviously doesn’t include colons. There are so many lies and errors and snippets out of their context but I correct this one only. Then I’m done wasting my time with you. Although that is signal to you to lie even more and cut and paste, snip snip snip even cutting sentences and replacing commas with dots like we have seen from your blog entry about me.
“The tactics is called poisoning the well: he’s a bigot, fascist and racist so he lies, consider that when you read his arguments.”
After the colon comes the part which in this case specifies the former. So I’m not calling you any names. I’m referring to the tactics, describing how poisoning the well works: it works like this. See there, the latter specifying the former. And at the same time describing it by listing examples of what you actually did, what names you called ME.
If my English was not good enough, maybe you should have contextualized? 😀
In this case it actually would have been very easy because you did everything I listed.
You called me a bigot, a fascist and yes, even a racist. You switch between the definitions of racism when it is convenient for you. But you accused me about talking Somalis or Africans even though I said no such thing. I didn’t even mentioned them before your accusations.
“You and that other joker Elvin however were more than keen to paint Somalis a group as criminals and gold-diggers, however.”
So what are you accusing me of? What is it but racism if you label some people like that? Labeling an ethnic group as criminals and gold-diggers? What is it if not racism? You are being dishonest, Mark.
But the lengths you are willing to go to lie… that makes me feel really good, actually. It proves you are desperate, Mark. You know that you lost and it makes you cut and paste from here and there and give there narratives of yours like the people could actually rely on your descriptions of the events and the context where you snipped them.
So I’m happy. You cut and paste and make even blog entries of those because you know the actual conversation is in favor of me. I don’t have a need to make narratives like yours. I trust the conversation explains itself. I don’t need to explain and snip snip snip and make silly claims about what *really* (as if) happened. You do. And that tells me all.
Yeah, it’s a good day. So long, Mark. 😀
Elven
Back again? lolololol
Of course, any quoting will take something out of context, I’ll give you that. But that alone does not make it a lie or an error.
Well, nice to finally get an explanation of that. It only took three days and several mentions. I accept your explanation.
Also, a colon also provides explanation, not merely an example. So that it can easily be interpreted as ‘he poisons the well because he’s a bigot, fascist and racist’. As you named me specifically in the previous sentence, to avoid ambiguity, you really should mention that the demonstrative refers to someone else than previously named. That is normal for the sake of clarity.
Elven, I have corrected your erroneous understanding of bigotry before. I referred specifically to you and Farang, based on comments you have given. This is not ‘anonymous classification of people’s negative characteristics based on some loose group membership’. It’s hardly racism. And look my words ‘keen to paint’. I think I was being accurate.
Anyhow, until your next urge to ‘set the record straight’ and call me a liar once again! 🙂
Elven
This says a lot more about you than it does me.
I presented that sentence of yours three of four times in the last three days, and now finally you give something like an explanation. It’s an explanation I accept. Your writing was particularly unclear, but I don’t hold that against you. Should I apologise for reading it differently? I don’t think so. You had the opportunity to correct the interpretation many times and declined to do so.
In the context of the “actual conversation”, of course I have no desire to misrepresent you and so again, I welcome and accept your explanation.
However, the charge that I called you a racist when I did not still stands. Care to clarify that now, two days after saying it?
Elven
I accept your explanation as detailed above. But, I do think it useful for you to consider what has led to the confusion in your writing.
These are the pronouns: Mark…he’s a bigot, fascist and racist, so he lies…[in] his arguments, I’m forced to defend myself.
That’s quite a mess if the ‘he’s a bigot’ actually means ‘I’m a bigot (so he says)…’.
This is perhaps what you intended to write:
There you go, sunshine. A bit clearer now, isn’t it, you fascist bigot? 😀
Elven, so what do you have to say about this site: http://portti.iltalehti.fi/keskustelu//showthread.php?t=748936&page=2
It seems that your fellow Finns are praising breivik for what he did, can you please comment on this one, and please don’t comment on other things, stop ducking and dodging, just comment on this one, why your felow Finns are praising a Terrorist who murdered 77 people many of them were innocent little children?
Hi D4R
Voisitko leikata ja liittää joitakin niistä kommentteja, jotka ylistivät Breivik?
Joonas: I have to admit that I have to take Elven’s side on this debate. I haven’t read all his texts in MT, but at least in this discussion he has behaved much better than D4R. EA did explain his views detailed and politely in the second message, but what he gets: insults. If EA has said something bad about muslims/somalis in some other blog, remember this (which is said multiple times in MT): Two bads don’t make one good.
Ok, so me criticising Elvin for praising a murderer Breivik to you is equivalent as insulting a whole group? i don’t surprised of why you’re siding up with Elvin even though you admitted that you havent read all his post on M.T.
Joonas: but what he gets: insults. If EA has said something bad about muslims/somalis in some other blog, remember this (which is said multiple times in MT): Two bads don’t make one good.
Hay, this is between me and Elvin, i havent said anything bad about all Finns, i just criticised, was alittle bit too harsh to Elvin because he was sympathising a Terrorist brevik.
Elvin: And what is he saying? That Nazism is a norm in Finland and that I’m sick and racist and so on? He has not backed up a bit. He just goes on and on with the same accusations. But hey, maybe I’m not contextualizing it right?
I just got out from work and came home so to respond to you, that’s why i didn’t have time to respond, but it seems that you have been busy posting here, don’t you have work to do Elvin?
Ok, chill out man, if i offended you earlier im sorry, there you go, you’re right Elvin, i did make a mistake right there, as English is not my mother toungue, what i meant was > Nazism is becoming as a norm, judging by the site i posted, people there seem to praise Breivik and Nazism.
Mark ok
I will post some of the comments from Iltalehti, there yyou an see how many many Finns are praising Breivik for what he did.
Ei nimimerkkiä
Vieras Viestejä: n/a
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Breivik on urhea PerusPohjoismaalainen uros, jolla olisi käyttöä PerusSuomalaisten organisaatiossa. Jos ei ihan Puolueen johdossa niin ainakin Sisussa ja HommaFoorumilla hän voisi toimia johtoHommissa.
Ei nimimerkkiä
Vieras Viestejä: n/a
Brevik maahanmuuton ravistelu
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Lainaus:
Ei nimimerkkiä kirjoitti:
Breivikin teko oli sairas mutta mies puhuu myös asiaa, haluatteko te kaikki tosiaan että Suomestakin tulee joku kulttuurien sulatusuuni missä kantasuomalaiset on pieni vähemmistö ja Islam valtauskonto?
Breivik on paljon aikaansa edellä,hänen toimensa ymmärretään vasta kymmenien,ehkä vasta sadanvuoden päästä.
Breivik ymmärtää mitä yhteiskunnille Euroopassa ja muualla maailmassa on tapahtumassa.
Sen kehitykseen hän puuttui omalaatuisella tavalla,kuitenkaan ei maailmalla niin tuntemattomaan tekotapaan.
Maat jotka sekopäisen hyysäri-suvaitsevaisuus poliitiikan vuoksi menettävät vuosituhansisen historiansa ja kansallisomaisuutensa yhteiskuntaan soluttautujille,joilla ei ole mitään tekemistä maan varallisuuden ja kansallisomaisuuden kasvattamisessa.
Islamilainen uskonkansa on aina vaeltanut rikkaimmille alueille hyödyntämään valmista pöytää kautta Islamilaisen historian.
Rosvoaminen on kuulunut kulttuuriin Islamin perustamisesta alkaen.
Breivikin teko oli sairas mutta mies puhuu myös asiaa, haluatteko te kaikki tosiaan että Suomestakin tulee joku kulttuurien sulatusuuni missä kantasuomalaiset on pieni vähemmistö ja Islam valtauskonto?
Ei nimimerkkiä
Vieras Viestejä: n/a
Breivikin kohde oli väärä
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Lainaus:
Ei nimimerkkiä kirjoitti:
Nyt hän saa maistaa tekonsa rinnalla vähäsen demarivihaa.
En tajuu miks Breivik tappoi Norjalaisia.
Olis listiny Muslimiterroristeja niin olis sankari nyt. Teurastuskohde oli väärin valittu.
Breivikin olis pitäny pestautuu esim. Usa.n armeijaan ja sit olis päässy Afganistaniin tekemään mielitekojaan.
Palkkasoturiks olis ruvennu tai menny sissiliikkeeseen jonnekin ampumaan rosvoja ja vihollisia.
Ei nimimerkkiä
Vieras Viestejä: n/a
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ottaisitko tämän miehen vävypojaksesi…?
Tuota samaa virheellistä mantraa te muslimihyysärit jaksatte valehdella.
On nimenomaan todisteita siitä, että toisen ja kolmannen polven maahanmuuttajat ovat radikaaleimpia kuin ensimmäisen.
Toisen polven maahanmuuttaja oli Lontoon metroiskusta vastuussa ollut pakistanilainenkin.Lääkäri vielä.Ei estänyt posauttamasta satoja vääräuskoisia hengiltä.
Joten lopettakaa nyt tuo valheellinen paskanlässytys, miten muka islam maallistuu Euroopassa.Päinvastoin ,kun radikalisoituu.
Ei nimimerkkiä
#43 Ilmoita asiaton viesti 17.04.2012, 15:31
Ei nimimerkkiä
Vieras Viestejä: n/a
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Lainaus:
Ei nimimerkkiä kirjoitti:
En tajuu miks Breivik tappoi Norjalaisia.
Olis listiny Muslimiterroristeja niin olis sankari nyt. Teurastuskohde oli väärin valittu.
Breivikin olis pitäny pestautuu esim. Usa.n armeijaan ja sit olis päässy Afganistaniin tekemään mielitekojaan.
Palkkasoturiks olis ruvennu tai menny sissiliikkeeseen jonnekin ampumaan rosvoja ja vihollisia.
Et taida tajuta että ne olivat hyysäreitä ja epäisänmaallisia Breivikin mielestä eli siis täysin laillisia kohteita taistelussa maan puolesta. Pidätkö hyysäreistä ja mokuttajista ja epäisänmaallisista??? Tämän siitä saa kun ette äänestä oikein. Breivikin mukaan voi saada jotain aikaankin vasta 30 % ääniosuudella eli kannatusta olisi kansalta tultava lisää.
D4R, I read these comments with sadness and disgust. It’s incredible that such trolls live in Finland.
This kind of discussion is taking place in Alma media.
Migrant Tales: D4R, I read these comments with sadness and disgust. It’s incredible that such trolls live in Finland.
Not to mention how many many Finns have posted to that site for being straight up Facist and sympathizing Breivik for the killings he did to those innocent children, a dark times we’re living in Finland.
:
Väinämöinen, give me a break. Stop this BS. How many non-European immigrants live in Norway?
These videos posted have been taken down because they are racist and by parties like the BNP, whose agenda is spreading prejudice. The two other ones didn’t even have sources.
If you want to post this type of BS there are many other places you can do that but not on Migrant Tales. We have some integrity. Moreover, I ask those who post video clips to put the source.
Thank you.
🙂 Migrant Tales
sorry to say but the first is from Norwegian Tv (FRP), the second was about the an opinion about the norwegian head of police who insists to publish the statistics.
they say that native population is emptying in some parts of Oslo due to the multicultural hellwhole.
The same is happening in Sweden, Denmark and also here in Finland what Halla-aho implied correctly.
–they say that native population is emptying in some parts of Oslo due to the multicultural hellwhole.
Let’s see… the first is by BNP, the second is by a near relative of the BNP, the Progress Party of which Anders Breivik was a member, and the third is something similar to the former and latter video clips.
You call this unbiased reporting? It’s called reporting with an agenda.
Dear National congress on Norwegian tv :)….
those are facts, he is stating that it has happened, as well as it has happened in Sweden and Denmark. Finland is only ”in process”
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/oslo/article4070789.ece#.T47xxo6WFT4
google translator
It’s hard being ethnic Norwegian here
Patrick Åserud have had enough of pressure salami-free lunches, blonde proportionality and terrible locales.
Anette Karlsen (photo)
Published: 23 March. 2011 (9:39 p.m.) Updated: 12.okt. 2011 (22:13)
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– I will not let my children grow up here. That I do not take the chance.
He has decided. After a lifetime of Differences in Oslo, has in recent years the development alarmed Patrick Åserud away. This summer he moves with his wife and daughter from kindergarten Furuset and out of town.
He moves from a local community he believes is about to collapse under the weight of failed integration.
Disturbing stories
– It’s been hard to be an ethnic Norwegian of Differences. It’s about massive language problems, as well as a pressure to adapt to the norms that feels completely foreign to us who have a Western way of life and thinking.
– There is almost no day-care centers where children or parents speaking Norwegian, and schools where children are threatened with punishment in order to bring a lunch box on the salami.
– Girls are bullied for being blonde and dark hair color to fit. It’s not okay to be gay in school, not an atheist, and certainly not a Jew. Especially the last three years have been scary to see and hear about what is happening, says Åserud.
A majority of parents need an interpreter
He said the day care job. It is not at least 15 years as an educator in schools and day care that he makes an increasingly unequal distribution of ethnic Norwegians and minorities on the body.
– We had to have interpreters in 10 of 18 parental calls. What possibilities are there really to create good environments and provide a good working relationship with the home, then, asks rhetorically Åserud.
Thousands have benefited from the valley
He feels that it is he and his family must be integrated as a minority in their own country.
– I have been positive and optimistic in the past. But there is a limit when there is a majority who do not speak Norwegian well. We are many who feel this strongly, regardless of skin color. An Indian family I know are expected to live as Muslims because they are brown in the skin.
Väinämöinen: sorry to say but the first is from Norwegian Tv (FRP), the second was about the an opinion about the norwegian head of police who insists to publish the statistics.
What does this video have to do with Finland, we’re trying to discuss issues inside Finland lie racism, so i don’t understand why this video you posted is relevant here.
Väinämöinen: they say that native population is emptying in some parts of Oslo due to the multicultural hellwhole.
The same is happening in Sweden, Denmark and also here in Finland what Halla-aho implied correctly.
You’re easily brainwashed and manipulated, use your brain for once and see the world as it’s outside Jussis Halla’s racist scriptas
🙂 🙂 it was a statement, a fact not an opinion
D4R
”What does this video have to do with Finland, we’re trying to discuss issues inside Finland lie racism, so i don’t understand why this video you posted is relevant here.”
I thought the discussion should be about the topic above. 🙁
Yesterday in San Francisco, I went to an all-Chinese big grocery store in my parents’ neighborhood, the Excelsior, primarily Chinese with some Latinos/Philippinos. Chinese music, fish in big tanks, etc. etc… quite a good market and good prices, although I’m the only minority there I can see, i.e. the only nonAsian/nonHispanic. Blacks don’t come to this market. But suddenly I see an Arabic woman (presumably female?) covered from top to toe in black cloth, slit for eyes, something I NEVER see in the streets EVER. Her husband or at least accompanying male is in the next aisle, face exposed, big black beard, they’re calling each other. The Chinese are eying them both with extreme uneasiness, when normally their culture tells them to ignore as much as possible and avert the eyes. Security at the door is watching them, too.
I decided there’s only one thing a native “white” (ethnic but pale) San Franciscan should do: ask them where they’re from. Why not be friendly, lilke Enrique Tessieri recommends, and embrace the multikulti madness, why avoid it and be afraid?
They look at me and refuse to answer. I started naming as many middle eastern countries as I could think of.. They turn their heads and walk away.
Gosh, why not be friendly, newcomers? Don’t you think your unfriendliness could be construed as hate? CAn’t you be tolerant and open if you choose another country?
Ach. Who am I? Just a nobody in San Francisco who hasn’t left the hellhole yet…inertia. We’re waiting for a big anti-European hate crime to finally drain this city out and let the hordes grab it all. Tourists hate to see it happening and tell me all the time, bluntly.
Yes, Enrique, it’s all over, not just in Finland. WHich synagoge do you attend, anyway?
Mary
Your response to other human beings from other cultures is lamentable. If you think interrogating someone as to where they are from in a shop is a sign of friendliness, you are even further into your own bubble than I imagined.
And what has any of this got to do with Breivik?
Mark
You are good at defending criminals. How would you defend Breivik?
–You are good at defending criminals. How would you defend Breivik?
It’s these types of comments that inflame the debate. It is a good far-right anti-immigration strategy because with it you try to avoid the issue. What is the issue? That with the case of Norway you were making a storm in a teacup by labeling billions of people.
Väinämöinen
As a point of fact, even criminals are allowed a good defence! It’s part of our justice system, so I won’t take that as necessarily a bad thing. With Breivik, there is no defence. The only thing left is to ensure he is treated humanely as he serves out the rest of his life behind bars. That at least goes some way to preserving the society that he so viciously assaulted.
mark
sure he should spend his life behind bars. But it doesn’t change the Communistic community of Norway in any regard.
Pieni kommenti keskustelun laatuun. Keskustelu on aika kiva tappelu.
Breivik ansaiksee tulla kuulletussi ja saada oikeuden käynti. Ei siksi että hän olisi tehnyt oikein vaan, jotta voisimme näyttää, että omankädenoikeus on tuomittua. Me emme voi antaa ihmisten alkaa teloitella niitä joista ei nyt vaan pidä. Silloihan kaikki ajautuisi anarkiaan.
Mutta toisaalta Etelä-Afrikassa ANC käytti väkivaltaa kaataakseen rasistisen hallituksen. Me emme saisi olla teko pyhiä. Näin ollen meidän on tuomittava kaikki omankädenoikeus mutta muistettava ne syyt jotka ajoivat siihen.
Sasu
”Näin ollen meidän on tuomittava kaikki omankädenoikeus mutta muistettava ne syyt jotka ajoivat siihen.”
Mitä sä muistat Breivikin manifestista?
–”Näin ollen meidän on tuomittava kaikki omankädenoikeus mutta muistettava ne syyt jotka ajoivat siihen.”
Voisitko kertoa meille mitkä ovat ne syyt?
Väinämöinen
I’m pretty sure the vast majority of Norwegians would not agree with you in thinking their country was a communistic community. So, that means that you are politically an extremist. But, hey, I understand that the world makes still makes sense to you, even if you have to disagree with the vast majority of people to maintain your sense of reality. The problem is, you are defining something that doesn’t belong to you; it belongs to the collective that is the people of Norway. It is their right to name it what they want, and they name it: The Kingdom of Norway – a unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy.
I don’t think you are going to make much progress in your life if your political strategy is to constantly be trying to tell a large group of people that they believe one thing, and they continually disagree with you and say they actually believe something else. What can you possibly gain from this pointless exercise? It’s a bit like you telling me – you are Egyptian, and I reply, no, I am Welsh, no you are Egyptian, no I am Welsh. Who is more likely to know my nationality, you or me?
Väinämöinen
En mitään. Joten taisin olla ny vähän idealisti.
Mark
You have your view, not the majority’s nor the world’s. I knew a guy who went to Norway and got a ticket of speeding, for some reason he thought it was outragous. However my view is the lack for freedom of speech, chocking all critisism. The statistics of the rapes from Norway would never have been published, it was the head of the police (the woman in the video) insisting to do so. Many Norwegians agree with her. Including me, and those statistics have attracted worldwide attention.
There’s no lack of racist comments at the IL discussion, some “nice” examples of those are included in D4R’s post. This, however, looks like a sarcastic retort by someone who wants to bash PS: “Breivik on urhea PerusPohjoismaalainen uros, jolla olisi käyttöä PerusSuomalaisten organisaatiossa. Jos ei ihan Puolueen johdossa niin ainakin Sisussa ja HommaFoorumilla hän voisi toimia johtoHommissa.”
Migrant Tales
monta syytä…voi tulla väärinkäsityksiä joten lukekaa itse. Luen just sitä uudestaan niin ehkä sunnuntaina voisin olla viisaampi.
Tuli mieleen, Saksan demokraatit (suurin puolue) haluaa kaikki maahanmuuttajat Saksasta. Oiskohan hallituksen ilmoitus että, Saksa on nykyisellä kehityksellä islam valtio noin 2050 jotain asian kanssa tekemistä?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8WUMr5uUss
Väinämöinen voisit viedä muualle sinun Hommafoorumi propaganda valheitasi, se ei pure tähän, olet väärällä territorilla. Me ollaan taklaamassa just se rasistinen ja vainoharhainen propaganda jota levitätte muslimeista ja maahanmuuttajista. Sen sijaan että postaat pätkävideoita ulkomailtaa terävöitäksesi argumentisi, niin pyydän sinun keskittyä Suomen sisäisen tilaan, esim: maahanmuuttajien kohdistuma rasismi ja lisääntyvä äärioikeisto terrorismi Euroopassa kuten Breivik joka lainasi Suomalaisen äärioikeisto Perussuomalaisen Jussi Halla Aho manifesti. Voisit kommentoida näihin Suomen sisäisiin ongelmiin.
Väinämöinen: Mark
You are good at defending criminals. How would you defend Breivik?
And to who you’re referring as “criminals” if i may ask you?
IL forum is like the uncensored version of Homma and they’ve been questioned about it. However, IL moderators refuse to do anything about the racism, homophobia and sexism that run that place. In fact, IL seems to encourage this sort of commentary with provocative titles to get hits and turn everyone against eachother. It’s sickening, really, but that forum (and Suomi24, for example) attract certain type of individuals and therefore one should not draw conclusions that the world view present there is becoming the norm in finnish society. Also, I don’t think you can find any other group posting as obsessively as the Hommabots.
Visitor
A good comment!
Visitor, agreed.
D4R
rasismi on valtion vika
Väinämöinen: D4R
rasismi on valtion vika
Ei, rasismi on sunkaltaisten koulua käymättömien, tietämättömien, ihmisiä ja elämää pelkäävien syytä. katso peiliin.
Eikä kun sun, ennakkoluuloja täynnä olevien ihmisten vika. Jotka aina menevät vituix
D4R
And people like you, drama school…
Väinämöinen: Eikä kun sun, ennakkoluuloja täynnä olevien ihmisten vika. Jotka aina menevät vituix
Minkä ikäinen olet?