The attack by arsonists on Friday of a Buddhist temple in Turku’s Moisio’s district is another worrisome sign of how a deranged group of people can undermine Finland’s good name. If there is any finger-pointing for what happened, it should be at some Finnish politicians who, owing to the April 2011 elections, have fuelled such acts by their populist statements and shameful lack of leadership.
Immigrants who live in Finland and those that will come to work here are being singled out by some opportunist politicians as scapegoats for the country’s economic woes. Social Democrat MP Eero Heinäluoma and MP Kari Rajamäki are good examples of how their anti-immigrant statements spill over into racism.
Heinäluoma, for example, made the incredible remark recently that immigrants will fuel racism because they will take jobs away from Finns. Rajamäki likes to call asylum-seeker to Finland “refugee shoppers.”
Why haven’t Heinäluoma and Rajamäki condemned acts of racism in Finland forcefully? The answer is disturbingly obvious.
These politicians should not forget SDP’s roots and how the party thanks to Väinö Tanner (1881-1966) played a critical role in not permitting Finnish Jews to be deported to Nazi concentration camps during World War 2.
The vice president of the Vietnamese Buddhist Community in Finland, Ari Vuokko, told Finnish Broadcast Company (YLE) that it wasn’t the first time Buddhist families in this country have been the target of attacks by racists.
Swastika signs had been sprayed on traffic signs near the temple.
“This is shocking and worrisome,” he said. “Do worshippers dare use this temple, can people practice their faith in Finland?”
Finland was recently named by Newsweek as the best country in the world in terms of health, economic dynamism, or openness of its economy and the breadth of its corporate sector, education, political environment, and quality of life.
With attacks of the Buddhist temple serving as a rude reminder of what racism can do to a minority community and society, we should ask Newsweek to include in their survey how open a society is to cultural diversity.
The ceiling of the Buddhist temple after it was attacked by arsonists. Damages are estimated in the tens of thousands of euros. YLE
Dear All,
thks for this information – indeed we immigrants have to stay on allert conc all verbal and non-verbal attacks at us immigrants ahead of next years eduskunta elections.
guess it would be a good possibility to discuss these issues on sept.21, 18.30 – 20.30pm at the immigrant resident’s evening, city hall banquet room, pohjois-esplanadi 11-13, helsinki
take care – see you – kdrgds
werner h. fischer – helsinki
Hi Werner, thank you for the invitation. I hope a lot of people who visit this blog attend the meedint on September 21 at 6:30-8:30pm at Helsinki City Hall banquet room (Pohjois-Esplanadi 11-13).
I would love to attend. I am not against immigrants, and oppose all violence against them: verbal or otherwise. People who attack immigrants simply because they are immigrants are stupid people. The best meetings in the world are ones composed of immigrants of all nationalities. Only one caveat: not all immigration policies are equal. By that I mean, more screening should be done to prevent undesirables. I wish you well at the meeting and condemn the violence against peaceful Buddhist. Free Tibet!
Of course, as usual, this blog writer conveniently in his racist fervor forgets the repeated situations where CHRISTIAN CHURCHES have faced attempted or successful arson.
1997 Tyrvään Pyhän Olavin kirkko was actually burned.
2006 Porvoon kirkko.
2009 attempted arson of Suomennienem kirkko.
And that was just the few I got googling a couple minutes.
My heart goes to whole Buddhist community in Finland. Because we insist that Finnish people should tolerate the most barbaric and violent religion in their own country, now we see the most pacifist religion in the world has been targeted.
You can’t keep pushing the main population to the limit and expect no consequences from it, unfortunately the innocent pays the price. How long until we start to protect the good immigrants in Finland?
I’m not quite sure the world will be hearing much about a small arson attach in one Finnish city, making it any damage to the Finland’s good name, however I have no doubt the news that no matter with or how many laws you break to get into Finland you still will be generously supported by the Finnish tax payer will travel far… far… away.
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/09/police_accuse_criminal_group_of_bringing_in_more_than_100_illegal_immigrants_to_finland_1976388.html
“All of those who entered Finland have applied for asylum here.”
Very… Very interesting…
http://www.thelocal.se/28970/20100913/
“While there has been no analysis made of any incidents of harassment and violence during the 2010 election campaign, a study conducted after the EU parliamentary elections in 2009 showed that autonomous left groups such as the Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) or the Revolutionary Front stood behind the majority of any violence.”
Tony & Tiwaz: You guys should also go to the meeting in Helsinki. You could maybe meet some immigrants there. Maybe communication is a better way to understand immigrants instead of avoiding them.
And what would be the point?
It is my home land. My native culture.
I already know how to live in it, I live Finnish life every day of my life.
YOU are the stranger coming here, not me. YOU must adjust not me.
As for this incident, as I have pointed out I am disgusted by blatant racism Enrique flaunts in this blog.
He is racist who keeps spewing lies and half-truths in his quest of hatred against Finns.
As proven by this thread. Where is his outrage on immigrant rapists attacking Finnish women? Absent.
Where is his condemnation of Islamic aggression towards western people exercising their freedom of speech? Nowhere to be seen.
What he DOES do is cry racism when buddhist temple is attacked, forgetting completely numerous similar, and more successful, attacks against FINNISH holy places.
When he has to defend say muslim behavior he says how it is just small minority. But when one of the small group of lunatics who also, and more, attack Finnish churches, he lets loose his racist attitude and paints Finland as whole as racist.
–As for this incident, as I have pointed out I am disgusted by blatant racism Enrique flaunts in this blog.
Of all the people that write regularly in this blog, you are the only one trying to spoil the atmosphere by your rage and accusations. If you want to turn this blog into a free-for-all fight where people do nothing more than insult each other, I recommend you go to another blog. Or better yet, we could take a vote and ask you not visit us anymore.
A tactic used by people in this country and elsewhere who are challenged, call their victims the very things they blatantly are. It is like calling a person who is suffering from prejudice a “racist” because he has the guts to speak up for his rights.
Another matter that bothers me and the readers of this blog is your cussing. Is this how you speak in public?
And, on top of all this, to do it anonymously is pretty incredible.
And what would be the point?
It is my home land. My native culture.
-As I said, my girlfriend is Finnish too. You are not the only Finn on this planet.
-“Of all the people that write regularly in this blog, you are the only one trying to spoil the atmosphere by your rage and accusations.”
I’m sorry. Does me pointing out harsh reality ruin your little parade of racism?
And rage? Jeez. Is that the best you can come up with? Passionate, perhaps, but rage not. As for accusations, what do you call your own text?
Or blatant insults presented by Alien? I do not claim innocence, but I do point out your double standards.
-“If you want to turn this blog into a free-for-all fight where people do nothing more than insult each other, I recommend you go to another blog. Or better yet, we could take a vote and ask you not visit us anymore.”
What about we take a vote and demand you to back up your claims? Hmm?
What I want is FAIR and EQUAL position for this blog.
Something it is seriously missing with all the Finnbashing.
In your blog, anyone can blame and bash Finns and you say not a word.
-“A tactic used by people in this country and elsewhere who are challenged, call their victims the very things they blatantly are. It is like calling a person who is suffering from prejudice a “racist” because he has the guts to speak up for his rights.”
Bullshit. You are just lying through your teeth.
Give me PROVEN cases or prejudice, and while at it prove that this is far higher amount than elsewhere.
Rights? Show me how large percentage of foreigners do not have their rights, and these are rights which EXIST IN REALITY, violated. And show that it is amount which is larger than elsewhere in the world.
You can’t. Because Finland is not racist when looked at objectively.
What you and rest of foreigners like you call racism is mostly foreigners failing to adjust to new nation.
If it is difficult it must be because Finns are racist, not because immigrant has not wrapped their heads around fact that Finland is independent nation with it’s own unique culture and society.
-“Another matter that bothers me and the readers of this blog is your cussing. Is this how you speak in public?”
Another matter which bothers me is how much you and rest of folk like you in this blog is lying and trying to give false images in situations.
Starting with lies on your “documentary”, continued by presenting unverified information of “racism” as facts, furthered with ignorance of context of situation with attack on Buddhist temple and in same breath having your buddy zeesomething in his blog ignore context in same way.
If you want me to take you seriously, try to make arguments which actually bother to dig up background.
IE, temple arson. RACISM! Let’s ignore repeated similar offences against Finnish churches.
Zee speaking of racism how some black guy has his work estimate shrink ever smaller. RACISM! Let’s ignore that Finnish workers are complaining of very same thing.
Does racism exist in Finland? Yes, but instead of speaking of real racism (which is very minor) you start making accusations on issues which have nothing to do with real racism.
-“And, on top of all this, to do it anonymously is pretty incredible.”
Yes, because I want sick stalkers like xyz to have access to my personal information. He already has proved sick desire to try to dig up information about me, and I am definitely not going to make it possible for him to get any more of me than this nick.
Well just Google for Tiwaz + Forum 🙂
“Of course, as usual, this blog writer conveniently in his racist fervor forgets the repeated situations where CHRISTIAN CHURCHES have faced attempted or successful arson.”
Sorry Enrique, but Twizas is kind of right…
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Arson+cases+are+putting+stress+on+Finnish+cities/1135260137230
“Finland has long had a grim tradition of arsons in churches”
Tony, I think the problem is that you are trying to put a racist-motivated crime in the same group as any crime. Murder is a more serious crime than battery. I personally consider racially motivated crimes very serious.
Ups, sorry the typo Tiwaz…
Dear Enrique, sometimes I wonder what’s happening.
First there was the case about the Heinäluoma’s “take our women” comments. You said that he said, then it turned that he actually didn’t say it, so you changed that someone said he said, still not quite accurate, so you changed again that some people has asked him.
Than there was the Urplilainen’s “maassa maan tavalla” comment’s transaction starting with “love it of leave it” turning not to be quite accurate so it went to “when in Rome”.
Now the “racist” temple arson attach that it may not be that racist after all.
My friend, are you in the “desperate times desperate measures” mode?
“The take our woman” comment was made by a columnist concerning Heinäluoma’s statement.
With “maassa maan tavalla,” its direct translation is “in Rome do…” but I would also translate it into “Finland, love it (or leave it).
If there are swastikas sprayed near the temple it suggests that it was a racially motivated crime. In Finland, as you know, a person is innocent before proven quilty. Allegedly it appears to be a crime motivated by racism.
Furthermore, the way journalists write their stories can be confusing. If there was any misunderstanding on what I wrote I apologize for the mistake.
What is the evidence that this arson attack was motivated by prejudice, as opposed to mindless vandalism? If someone daubs the name of a pop star or football club on the wall of a church, I don’t automatically assume that the aim was to attack the church as such.
Just asking.
–What is the evidence that this arson attack was motivated by prejudice, as opposed to mindless vandalism?
Thank you, JusticeDemon! It is odd that they could not make the difference.
“It is odd that they could not make the difference.”
Sorry but what do you mean?
“Allegedly it appears to be a crime motivated by racism. ”
To whom? So far you were the only one reporting this fact already giving the motives.
“In Finland, as you know, a person is innocent before proven quilty.”
Exactly…
“…it suggests that it was a racially motivated crime”
How can you conclude that the same people were responsible for both actions? Haven’t you said here, many times, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions before all the facts are known?
Sorry but it’s the third time you rush to call racism and end up in hot waters.
Tony, I haven’t ended up in “hot water.” On the contrary, you are the only one asking me this question. You are asking me to be quiet and not report what may have caused the fire. That is not the way things are done. If there is a Buddhist Temple that it burned by arson and there are swastika signs sprayed nearby it suggests a racially motivated crime.
Were the signs sprayed by the same people? Is the temple the only property owned by immigrants in the area? Are the swastikas for the people attending the temple or other group of immigrants? Were the arsonists drunk? Extremely drunk? Did they know it was a temple, a church, a pub or a gay bar?
You wouldn’t ever accept such accusation toward a immigrant without an extensively investigation being carried out and proving it without a doubt. You would accuse us of jump to conclusions based on our suspicious minds rather than solid facts.
It’s sad to see that you have two sets of parameters, one for immigrants and one for Finns.
–You wouldn’t ever accept such accusation toward a immigrant without an extensively investigation being carried out and proving it without a doubt.
Are you accusing me of reporting this story? What is your point? Just because such a matter causes concern me I have to report all the crimes in Finland?
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/The+racist+attack+that+never+was/1135223298920
“However, it seems clear that in the name of tolerance, the media made news about a gruesome attack in on a pizzeria – a crime that never happened.”
I remember a case, few months ago, when two Turkish pizzeria owners had a fight and one got stabbed. Fortunately no one died and both gave a full account of what happened, but lets speculate for a minute…
I also read news about pizzerias being vandalized, so lets imagine that one of the owners had died from the attach and the other run away without being seeing. Would the cases of vandalism toward other pizzerias suggest this crime was racially motivated?
Unfortunately, due the currently political climate, we’ll see birds being called racists for pooping on top of immigrant cars.
My point is simple, you wrote an article about a crime with hasn’t been investigated, and you are claiming that it was racially motivated, no other sources, as far as I know, has attributed any motives to this crime yet, just because it’s unknown.
You are already giving the motive without anyone knows even who the criminals are. They could be anyone, even other immigrants. And to give your allegations some kind of base you are connect the swastikas signs to the fire, argument that is very week to say the least. Even Daemon has questioned how you have accessed this story, so this time you just can’t use the usual “I hate” theory.
Today there is another fire in Kaarina, if I claim here that this was done by Muslims in retaliation to the “Burn the Koran” day you would never accept it. Your argument against this would be simple, there is no proof of it…
Tony, the reason why you can ask such a question is because your anonymous and don’t take responsiblity for you what you say. You would never make such affirmations like “Klay” or “Tiwaz” would with your name. What would Klay’s and Tiawz’ boss or colleagues think if they went around making such affirmations? Is it PC or just not acceptable in a democratic society? Klay speaks about Nazism as if did not exist. He says that because he has read little history and/or is too frightened to face what racism actually did during the first half of the last century.
At least you know what multiculturalism is but Klay and Tiwaz are lost. Klay, for example, says that he is against multiculturalism but would not kick out foreigners from England. So how is he going to make things work there? Changing the laws? Or force everyone to get plastic surgery and “brainwash” them culturally? This is the problem with their arguments: They make little sense and are faraway from being realistic. They could not even be realized in a “light” dictatorship.
If you really want to understand what immigration and cultural diversity is all about, you should take a different approach. This stuff about hiding and pointing the finger doesn’t show much credibility.
And about the church that got attacked by arsonists, the vice president of the association building the church suggested that Vietnamese have been targets of racism in this country before. When you write the news, it does not come served to you on a plate and tells you what to think. You use your professional background and gut instincts. Judgement calls are made and newspapers do have editorial lines.
–Today there is another fire in Kaarina, if I claim here that this was done by Muslims in retaliation to the “Burn the Koran” day you would never accept it. Your argument against this would be simple, there is no proof of it…
Let the story happen and then we will weigh it.
Enrique, I have to agree with Tiwaz and Tony. The way you report events and evaluate circumstances and situations are mainly based on hypocrisy and contradictions along with double standards. It’s no better than the BNP or any other extreme right wing party propaganda but ofcourse for the other side.
The constant referral to the Nazis or the KKK is completely irrelevant as no one has ever said that groups of people with different religions, races or nationalities should be exterminated, expelled or even have lesser rights. The last thing these racist groups wanted was assimilation and integration.
I started reading this blog and the comments on here to see what the people for multiculturalism and mass immigration had to say regarding the pros for it. I already had my opinion and felt strongly about it but wanted to read the other side and see if any points they made were correct. Frankly now I’m much more against multiculturalism and mass immigration than before which is an effort. The attitudes and thoughts of some people are bluntly very damaging and they are able to get away with it in countries such as the U.K., France or Sweden because large areas are cultural enclaves (ghettos) where there is no need to interact with the natives. But when they come to Finland and cannot do that, they fail to adjust and cry racism when they have to leave with their tails between their legs.
Whenever an immigrant has done well they are held up as an example of how they have fought against the odds to make a success of themselves. But whenever an immigrant has done badly it’s the hosts country’s fault as they are racist, never giving any opportunities in the first place. Can’t anyone see the fault in this contradiction?
–The constant referral to the Nazis or the KKK is completely irrelevant as no one has ever said that groups of people with different religions, races or nationalities should be exterminated, expelled or even have lesser rights. The last thing these racist groups wanted was assimilation and integration.
Do you really think that the Nazis said that they wanted to exterminate all those that they did? And, for your information, there is very little to no referral to the KKK in this blog. It like the BNP in England.
“Tony, the reason why you can ask such a question is because your anonymous and don’t take responsiblity for you what you say.”
Sorry but who’s anonymous here? Who doesn’t take responsibility? What kind of talking is that? What do you want for me to do to prove who I’m? I’m not joking here, my friend. I’m not a teenager who has nothing better to do then piss you off, and don’t treat me as such. Just to let you know, this comment of yours if very offensive to me.
Your article is not right, period, is giving a motive without any solid base, as many has said. You can spin it as much as you want, but this is the truth, you like it or not.
“This stuff about hiding and pointing the finger doesn’t show much credibility.”
Who is hiding?
“Judgement calls are made and newspapers do have editorial lines.”
So they take responsibility for what they say and issue an apology when wrong…
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1332/001vra.jpg
Please Enrique, don’t talk to me as if I was a kid anymore.
I am sorry, Tony, if you feel that way.
-‘At least you know what multiculturalism is but Klay and Tiwaz are lost. Klay, for example, says that he is against multiculturalism but would not kick out foreigners from England. So how is he going to make things work there?’
How many times do I have to say it. Once multiculturalism occurs in a country on a large scale such as the U.K. then it’s impossible to reverse. The authorities are starting to realise that. When I talk about stopping multiculturalism I’m referring to Finland which hasn’t reached that stage and hopefully will never.
-‘What would Klay’s and Tiawz’ boss or colleagues think if they went around making such affirmations? Is it PC or just not acceptable in a democratic society? Klay speaks about Nazism as if did not exist.’
Ever heard of ‘free speech’. There’s no difference between the context of my comments to your comments. But since you critise Finns that makes it fine but me critising immigrants is outrageous in your mind. Typical double standards that I’m getting used to with you Enrique.
–When I talk about stopping multiculturalism I’m referring to Finland which hasn’t reached that stage and hopefully will never.
So your idea of an ideal society is going back to England of the 1950s?
–But since you critise Finns that makes it fine but me critising immigrants is outrageous in your mind.
Nice catchphrase but you are going to do better than that. Sometimes when a difficult matter is brought up you answer it with ready-made phrase: Always this and always that.
Due to Europe’s particular history and the way some see themselves and others (check out the role of eugenics), some Europeans still live in the nineteenth century when it comes to seeing other cultures. Cultural diversity is a way of life and a part of our societies. In Finland it has also been that way but to a lesser degree than, for example, in Fulham London.
You speak of immigration as if it were a sickness that spreads to society. It is definitely not that. It is a benchmark in our history that shows that cultures change because they come in contact with each other.
Until somebody wants to or thinks that extermination, expulsion or the decrease of the rights for minorities is a good idea, referring to Nazism is completely irrelevant. The equivalent would be for me to constantly talk about Al-Qaeda or the Black Panthers when referring to immigrants which would be silly ofcourse.
Once I hope that, one and for all, now my identity has been established here, we can continues with business…
Enrique, if you had asked my opinion I’d have said that probably it was a racially motivated attach. But this is not the problem here, the problem is that you clearly show to us that you have 2 sets of parameters, one when dealing with immigrants and one when dealing with Finns, and for me, a immigrant (that’s clear now isn’t?) who believes all, immigrants and Finns, should have the same treatment, this is something I just can’t accept.
Talking bout crimes, immigrants, Finland, etc… There you go…
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/09/police_nab_foreign_burglary_gang_1981344.html
Who’s going to be outraged by the FACT that families are loosing their properties? Who’s going to write an article about this?
Tony, a crime is a crime and the person that commits it should be tried by a court of law. There is not excuse irrespective of the person’s background.
In Madrid a group of Roma minors stole 250 euros from my account when I was using an ATM machine. Fortunately I caught them and called the police. They told me that nothing would happen to them because they were minors. The reason why I wanted the police to get involved was to show them that this type of behavior is not acceptable. Did I end up “hating” all Roma after this incident. No.
The difference is that even if somebody commits a crime we don’t go around blaming a whole group. If there are fanatics among a group it does not mean that ALL of them are alike. Making such an affirmation is like taking a walk on thin ice and falling into the icy waters.
1. Tony if you look at your name then you may realize that you have also an immigrant background.
2. Who says that those criminal gangs are residents in Finland (since Europol is involved in it)? And even if they are do you label me as a criminal as well just because I am an immigrant? I never broke into a house.
3. 2 sets of parameter mindset do unfortunately also exist for Finns. Just read the stuff you and others are posting here in this forum about immigrants. Sorry, but now I am not wondering why I had hard times in Finland. It’s not about my skills its just about the attitude of some people towards foreigners.
I can also post a link to a crime where a Finn is involved and shout around that all Finns are criminals. Does this make sense to you? I suppose not?
–It’s not about my skills its just about the attitude of some people towards foreigners.
Good point xyz. It is also the attitude of some foreigners of foreigners.
I’m an immigrant, my parents were immigrants, my mom’s parents were immigrants, my wife is an immigrant and also my two children.
However that doesn’t mean never criticize other immigrants or close my eyes to the problems immigration brings, neither means accept the multicultural ideology with supports immigrants to behave the way they think they should, particularly when this goes against the norms, rules and laws of the country they freely decided to immigrate to.
Furthermore, being in a long line family of immigrants doesn’t also means believe that all immigrants are good by definition.
Now my point is simple, Finns attaching a property owned by immigrants has caused outraged to some, fair enough, so it did to me, but now I want to see how many will be outraged, and write about it, when immigrants are attaching Finnish properties.
–Furthermore, being in a long line family of immigrants doesn’t also means believe that all immigrants are good by definition.
It could mean being more conservative and nationalistic than the locals. Immigrants compete for resources (work, for example) and this creates friction and the same attitudes of exclusion that the natives may have.
Well do you think that the majority of immigrants living in Finland are criminals? I suppose that if you have 140.000 immigrants in Finland and they would be all criminals then the newspaper would be full with articles about criminal activities done by immigrants every day.
I never said that all immigrants are good by definition. But if you write in general about immigrants then I suppose you mean all of them? Plus I don’t see any point to divide Immigrants and Finns into 2 separate classes. If one guy is an idiot then it does not mean that another guy is an idiot as well?!?
–If one guy is an idiot then it does not mean that another guy is an idiot as well?!?
Yes, true. Why always but a national, ethnic or religious label on him/her?
“It is also the attitude of some foreigners of foreigners.”
You see, that’s what annoys me, how about the attitude of some foreigners towards Finns? Doesn’t that happen? Why is that not wroth mention?
You do what you criticize the most here, you treat immigrants in a different way you treat Finns.
–You see, that’s what annoys me, how about the attitude of some foreigners towards Finns? Doesn’t that happen? Why is that not wroth mention?
I’m a bit confused. Isn’t that what you blame some of us of doing in this blog?
–You do what you criticize the most here, you treat immigrants in a different way you treat Finns.
Why do some papers treat different groups differently?
Enrique read this. http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2010051611676617_uu.shtml
How you feel that your rants about how racism is everywhere and it should be not tolerated causes assaults like this?
–How you feel that your rants about how racism is everywhere and it should be not tolerated causes assaults like this?
You ARE pulling my leg, right?
Hannu, now you think that all blacks are like this, right? Actually, its like in a Kindergarten. Let’s see who finds more links about who did something bad (unfortunately I don’t have time for this).
Hannu what are you doing? Are you out of your mind? Haven’t you learned already that in a civilized society we just talk about crimes committed by Finns against immigrants? Never the other way around, otherwise it is “hate” speech mate, be carful…
–Haven’t you learned already that in a civilized society we just talk about crimes committed by Finns against immigrants?
I am surprised that you could make such an accusation. But if you want to exaggerate go right ahead. Yes, Hannu, do as Tony says even though you published the link in THIS blog.
This is an interesting interview that I recommend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1LHqfa_GLY&feature=player_embedded#!
The idiot, Terry Jones, who was planning to burn the Koran in the United States asks why “we defend a country like Saudi Arabia that does not allow women to have driving licenses.” The answer is obvious: O I L. Talk about double standards!
Ups, sorry, not carful but careful…
Tony, I think your problem is that you are simply not able to separate between individuals and groups. I don’t see any sense to list up all crimes done by this and that nationality. Why should I make a person to a criminal even if he is not one?
“I’m a bit confused. Isn’t that what you blame some of us of doing in this blog?”
Sorry but you are not, you understood very well what I said. I blame you for criticize only Finns but never immigrants. Please, lets play fair here.
“Why do some papers treat different groups differently?”
Do they? Are you sure? Papers in Finland are either neutral or very soft when reporting anything from immigrants. Every time there is a report about violence from Muslims it always have an “specialist” explaining why it’s not really their fault.
“I am surprised that you could make such an accusation.”
Are you, oh well, life is full of surprises….
–Every time there is a report about violence from Muslims it always have an “specialist” explaining why it’s not really their fault.
I disagree with you. And do you read Finnish media on a daily basis? You can’t claim that “every time” and “always” because you know that isn’t the way it works.
In order to make this blog “fairer,” as you point out, what exactly would you like to see published? Do you think a racially motivated crime is “equal” to a similar crime that is not done under the same circumstances?
Tony I have a few questions for you.
As a fellow immigrant who believes in cultural assimilation and not multiculturalism as the way forward we belong in the minority of minorities.
After reading the ‘Are you a target of racism in Finland’ article and all the comments (no easy feat) I would like to ask is it really as bad as it’s made out to be? Can you please tell me any bad experiences you may have had.
I’ve been to Finland numerous times but staying a week or two is completely different to living and working there. From my experience even as a visible minority (mixed race black/white) I found Finns to be very friendly and curious about me. Some drunks even called me the ‘posh english gentleman’ because they said I spoke like an aristocrat as I went to private boarding school in England when I was younger.
Is there any substance to what the majority of people on this blog have been saying about Finland as I’m not in a position to judge myself? I must admit when some of the same people have thrown the same accusations at Britain their credibility for me goes out of the window as I know Britain and it’s people very well they couldn’t be further away from the truth. It seems to me that everything gets blown out of proportion on this blog.
Also another thing I don’t understand if Finland was so backwards in terms of being xenophobic why do a lot of Finnish women marry foreigners? According to the World Economic Forum Finland is only behind Norway in terms of gender equality meaning women have a strong presence in the workplace. So why is the impression given that immigrants with the right skills, education and Finnish speaking still have a tough time finding work? Is it all an exaggeration and the main reason is that the majority are just not up to scratch compared to their Finnish counterparts.
Please shed any deeper insight you may have Tony on that topic.
Thanks.
–I’ve been to Finland numerous times but staying a week or two is completely different to living and working there. From my experience even as a visible minority (mixed race black/white) I found Finns to be very friendly and curious about me.
This is what you claim but we have no proof. “Klay Immigrant” tells us nothing, only an attitude of a person who appears to have a problem with being an immigrant or against other immigrants. It also shows that you have such extreme ideas on immigrants and otherness that you do it anonymously and with a demeaning name.
Who has said that some Finns are not friendly?
–Some drunks even called me the ‘posh english gentleman’ because they said I spoke like an aristocrat as I went to private boarding school in England when I was younger.
What do you think this sentence reveals about yourself? Some people like to step on others to lift themselves socially. This happens all the time. Different ethnic groups do it to others as people too.
Another thing that puzzles me if Finland is highly prejudiced against immigrants how does someone such as Zahra Abdulla (a female Somali refugee) narrowly miss being elected to the Parliament of Finland in 2007? In October of the following year, Zahra was elected to the Helsinki City Council with nearly 2,500 votes, “a large number of which were given in areas where immigrants hardly show up as a blip on the local population register.”
Another sign of hypocricy and double standards enforced by Enrique is here in this thread plan and obvious.
He always keeps whining that me, or Klay, or someone else prefers to protect their privacy through use of nick, even if it is one that has been established a long time ago.
But let’s look at this thread and blog and look and pro-multiculturalists here.
JusticeDemon
xyz
and the rude and insulting “Alien”.
Who here thinks those are their names? Not me! But does Enrique EVER say a thing about them being cowards not posting with their personal information out in the open?
Of course not, there are two sets of standards.
One for multiculturalists who can basically commit cannibalism, murder and rape of person (in that order) and be doing nothing wrong in eyes of Enrique.
And then are the nazis in mind of Enrique. They could never do right, because they do not sign to multiculturalist lunacy.
–One for multiculturalists who can basically commit cannibalism, murder and rape of person (in that order) and be doing nothing wrong in eyes of Enrique.
Your black-and-white, good-bad, view of things is what clouds your vision of things. There were some groups like the Guayaki where cannibalism was an acceptable part of society. Other values against such a practice gave some people the moral right to exterminate them. But to accuse me of condoning rape is in bad taste. I take that as an insult on your behalf just like using profanity in this blog as freely as you do ANONYMOUSLY. You have to be careful what you accuse people of in an insulting manner because, in the end, you are responsible for what you say even if you hide from public sight.
“This is what you claim but we have no proof.”
Sorry but lack of proof didn’t prevent you from writing this article about the temple…
Klay, this is such a very important issue. First let me ask, you believe who I’m, don’t you? Just in case…
Anyway… In Finland you’ll find 3 group of people,
1. A very tiny minority who believes that immigrants are good by definition and would welcome even the most radical fire breading Imam. They believe we should have everyone no matter what.
2. The vast majority (95% at least) who are neutral about it, if you are good you are welcome, if you are not, piss off. That simple…
3. A even tiniest minority (I wouldn’t count even 1%) who believe immigrants are all bad and should be deported at once.
I had met a member of the third group. My brother in law is one of those skinheads, he even has the finish flag tattooed on the back of his head. First time I met him he told me in my face that I was a bag of rubbish and would never accept my married. How about now? He’s the godfather of my son and spend far more time at my house that at his brother’s. Why’s that?
I just proved to him, with attitudes not words, that I respect Finland and the Finns. That I’m not there to milk the system or play the race card every time I’m not happy. I’m not here the change things but follow the rules. I’d fight for Finland if called upon, and, in fact, I’m at the moment when trying to convince as many people as possible to vote to True Finns. I’m fighting for Finland’s future.
Enrique claims that Finland discriminate against foreigners, very well… I went to Finland 31 of December 2001, had never been there before, 20 of January I was starting my first day as an engineer. How racists is that? 2 and half years latter I was sent to a 6 months project in one of our partners in Oulu, 4 months latter I got an offer from this company to be an senior engineer for one year and architect after that. I also got an substantial financial offer. How racist is that?
PS. I just hope I don’t have to scan my contracts and post here to proof what I’m saying.
The truth is, if the Finnish employment office tells you that you only have skills to clean toilets, that’s what you have and playing the race card won’t help you.
Than you ask, why all this fuzz about it? Simple, if you want to social reengineer the country you need people as different as possible, and you need those who will refuse to integrate. So than you’ll need an explanation why things are going bad, calling racism is the way to go.
Let me Finnish quoting Martin, another very well integrated immigrant in Finland. He said this, here in this blog, last year.
“Hannu, you’ve put your finger right on it. Successful stories of integration like mine spoil the game, both for rednecks and for multicultural hippies, because we fail to be marginalized as people since we integrate seamlessly into the mass”
–1. A very tiny minority who believes that immigrants are good by definition and would welcome even the most radical fire breading Imam. They believe we should have everyone no matter what.
–2. The vast majority (95% at least) who are neutral about it, if you are good you are welcome, if you are not, piss off. That simple…
–3. A even tiniest minority (I wouldn’t count even 1%) who believe immigrants are all bad and should be deported at once.
Wow, Tony, I hope you have the empirical information to back what you are saying. I personally believe that the majority of Finns are ashamed by the racism of the minority. Why? Because it is contrary to their values. They did grow up in a country with a good standard of living, were given the opportunity of educating themselves PLUS about 900,000 were immigrants in the last century. So, these figures you take out of a hat may be good at some show but they don’t work in the real world.
Sorry to disappoint you.
And, by the way, it may be easy for you to speak from the comfort of your home and work in Dublin. You should move to Finland, learn the langauge, and dive into the culture like any of us do. Then, when you have past this test or baptism of fire, I will take your comments more seriously.
Do you have evidence for your claim Enrique?
You are eager to demand evidence but never present any of yours.
Double standards again? Not very smart for guy who has been caught red handed lying in this blog posts…
“…by the racism of the minority.”
Wasn’t that what I just said? Enrique, this is unbelievable, even when we agree I’m still, somehow, wrong.
“So, these figures you take out of a hat may be good at some show but they don’t work in the real world.”
He asked my opinion…
“Sorry to disappoint you.”
This is something you never do, my friend…
Yes, you are right Tony and apologies. Finns are ashamed of this type of behavior like anyone civil person.
And majority are shamed of minority who want to bend over backwards to appease immigrants. Both extremes are bad.
We majority want you foreigners to work out a way to fit into society as it is, not start demanding us to change our native land to suit you.
Is that too much to ask?
If, then justify why it is YOU who has to be appeased as opposed to your next door immigrant “brother” who disagrees with your cultural view.
“Yes, you are right Tony. Finns are ashamed of this type of behavior like anyone civil person.”
There you go Klay, there is you answer. Finland is a civilized society, and as any other, you will find racists, drunks, murderers, lazy, etc. That is a fact that no one here has ever denied. But the proportion of racism is insignificant.
Believe me, there is not a such thing as institutional racism in Finland, neither Finnish companies discriminates against immigrants. This is a myth created by the multicultural left to explain why the very people they so claim will be an asset to Finland has been nothing but a burden.
The Finnish immigration service has reported that Somalis use their fingerprints when signing their asylum applications. Now tell me, why do you think their unemployment rates are ski high? Racism?
–Believe me, there is not a such thing as institutional racism in Finland, neither Finnish companies discriminates against immigrants.
I wouldn’t sign my name on that statement. And neither did I say that since Finns have a good educational background it doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems when it comes to racism. It all depends who you are. In those places were Finns have dealt more with foreigners, there is probably less racism than in those were they have not.
The jury is out on how Finns will accept immigrants. Since I am an optimist, I like to believe that things will work out. However, I have seen discrimination in many shapes and forms during my 30-year residence in Finland.
For some it is a big issue. The only way we will tackle the problem is by grabbing the bull by the horns so to speak.
The social welfare system is very generous to Finns and foreigners but then when you want a job, the situation changes rapidly for some. Things are probably getting better in places like Helsinki. However, let me remind you that immigrant unemployment is over three times higher than unemployment naitonally.
But Tony…. We know that being illiterate and uneducated was not a huge handicap at 19th century, so why would should it be in 21st century first world society?
-“The social welfare system is very generous to Finns and foreigners but then when you want a job, the situation changes rapidly for some. Things are probably getting better in places like Helsinki. However, let me remind you that immigrant unemployment is over three times higher than unemployment naitonally.”
Again you blame Finns. And yet we have Tony here as testament that someone who wants to fit in and has proper education finds job easily enough.
Are you so thick you cannot grasp that if immigrant has no useful skills, nobody will hire them?
It is not charity we run here, if you can’t do your job you are useless. It is duty of IMMIGRANT to make sure they have useful skills to offer.
If they don’t, they have no business whining that they do not get a job.
-“However, I have seen discrimination in many shapes and forms during my 30-year residence in Finland. ”
And this discrimination is that Finns exepct immigrants to achieve same standards as Finns?
How horrible that immigrants are expected to be able to pull their own weight!
-“I wouldn’t sign my name on that statement. And neither did I say that since Finns have a good educational background it doesn’t mean that there aren’t problems when it comes to racism. It all depends who you are. In those places were Finns have dealt more with foreigners, there is probably less racism than in those were they have not. ”
Problems with REAL racism are neglible. Biggest “racism” problem is that foreigners cannot accept that Finland is it’s own independent country with unique culture and society and thus most things which foreigners take for granted at home are absent.
Finns accept immigrants who want to adjust and work towards improving Finland without demanding special treatment. But you expect Finns to give preferential treatment to foreigners. Everything short of that is apparently racism to you.
“It all depends who you are. In those places were Finns have dealt more with foreigners, there is probably less racism than in those were they have not. ”
For a year and half we lived in a rivitalo in Kempele, according to you theory how much racism do you think I should have encountered, lets say, from neighbors?
“The annual rise in the foreigners’ unemployment rate from 2008 to 2009 was 6.5 percentage points. In the same period, unemployment among the entire population rose by two percentage”
“Most of the more than 51,000 job seekers (immigrants) in 2009 had a medium, or upper comprehensive school level education.”
“Training for foreigners is mainly language teaching and orientation, which does not necessarily guarantee getting a job.“It is up to the labour market if the doors will open or not”, he says.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Recession+increases+unemployment+among+foreign+residents/1135260164852
” let me remind you that immigrant unemployment is over three times higher than unemployment naitonally.”
Let me remind you that according to what you have said some time ago, unemployment among Somalis is about 60% in Finland. In the UK, a far more tolerant country, it’s more than 80%, according to the channel 4 report I posted here last year.
As Twiaz said, literacy wasn’t that big issue in the 19th century, but things has changed…
Unemployment figures for immigrants in Finland are estimates in some cases. You say its more than 80% in England. Could you give me the source, thank you.
My point about literacy is that people can learn and progress. What? Finland is only a country of people with PhDs? All of them are super educated? I don’t think so.
“Most of the more than 51,000 job seekers (immigrants) in 2009 had a medium, or upper comprehensive school level education.”
Tony: Just to remind you that Muslims do only represent 10.000 people in Finland out of 140.000 immigrants.
Lets say all Somalis are Muslims and 60% are unemployed that means that we have 6000 unemployed Muslims in Finland with a Somali background.
However, we have 50.000 registered job seekers with immigrant background. That means we have 40.000 people with a non-muslim background left who are looking for a job.
So I don’t really understand what issue Tony has, since the majority of job seekers are not Muslims in Finland.
I also don’t think that all those job seekers are not able to read and write since the majority of those job seekers seem to have education.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1545147/Islamic-extremists-infiltrate-Oxbridge.html
“Leading universities including Oxford and Cambridge have been targeted by Islamic extremists who remain widely active on campuses, a prominent academic is warning”
“Up to 48 British universities have been infiltrated by fundamentalists …”
Prof Glees, the director of Brunel University’s Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, said: “We must accept this problem is widespread and underestimated. Unless clear and decisive action against campus extremism is taken, the security situation in the UK can only deteriorate.”
–“We must accept this problem is widespread and underestimated. Unless clear and decisive action against campus extremism is taken, the security situation in the UK can only deteriorate.”
OK, how many is this security head speaking of? What are you going to do? Round up all of the people in a certain religious group and kick them out of the country? I can see the same story in some Middle Eastern country. Whie pedophiles among our ranks. This is a great security risk to our minors…
Since you are determined to discredit a WHOLE religion then your claims must be inspected carefully. People don’t fall for these scare tactics in order to fuel hatred.
I personally believe it is disrespectful and outright dumb to blame a whole group for the actions of a few. Do you live in fear? How much does a group affect your life? Isn’t a difficult not liking so many people because they are different from you?
Those kind of hang ups I threw overboard a long time ago and I am very happy that I did.
Tony, you definitely motivate Muslims to integrate into this society.
“Could you give me the source, thank you.”
I think you well remember the report, but in any case, when I get home I’ll look at the old posts and copy the link here.
” What? Finland is only a country of people with PhDs?”
So Finland only need immigrants with at least some education because all have PhDs? Now you’re being sarcastic.
–So Finland only need immigrants with at least some education because all have PhDs? Now you’re being sarcastic.
No, my point is that Finland needs labor from the whole educational spectrum. The United States, the biggest economy and the most powerful country on Earth, needs people from all walks of life and educational background.
“The attack by arsonists on Friday of a Buddhist temple in Turku’s Moisio’s district is another worrisome sign of how a deranged group of people can undermine Finland’s good name.”
What are you going to do? Round up all of the people in a certain ideology group and kick them out of the country?
“Finland needs labor from the whole educational spectrum.”
Agreed, but for each educational level Finland has a different need. Unfortunately there isn’t enough cleaning job available for thousands Somalis coming every year.
–Agreed, but for each educational level Finland has a different need. Unfortunately there isn’t enough cleaning job available for thousands Somalis coming every year.
You speak of this nationality in the same way some do of Mexicans and Latin Americans. What do you think is the difference between them? Can you blame a person if he/she wants to find a better life? What are you trying to do? Stop such people from living in countries where there are more opportunities?
Give me some solutions instead of telling me why you don’t like a group. You can cry about Mexicans in the Southwest as much as you want. You cannot fence out huge economic difference and injustice forever. Millions left Europe in the last century because there were no opportunities and cliques ran countries like their own back yards. The same is going on today from other parts.
Tony, why do you complain about religious extremists? You are not even better.
You always complain about Muslims and Somalis. What do you think makes you so much better? Why should a Somali only be able to clean? Your attitude toward some people is completely narrow minded. I have a friend from Somalia who is a teacher in Finland.
With people like you I really don’t wonder why some people don’t want to integrate or do not feel belonging to the society. Who wants to learn the culture of somebody who hates them?
Sorry Enrique, I went to look for what you asked and end up finding something else. But as I said, I’ll find that report when I get home, meanwhile some interesting data…
http://www.nctc.gov/press_room/speeches/sfr-20090311.pdf
“According to data from the most recent census, the Somali-American population suffers the highest unemployment rate among East African diaspora communities in the United States, and experience significantly high poverty rates and the lowest rate of college graduation. These data also suggest that Somali-Americans are far more likely to be linguistically isolated than other East African immigrants.”
“In the last few years, a number of Somali-American young men have traveled to Somalia, possibly to train and fight with al-Shabaab. One of these travelers—Minneapolis-resident Shirwa Ahmed—perpetrated a suicide bombing late last October. ”
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/cb09-cn01.html
“The foreign-born from Somalia and the Dominican Republic had some of the lowest median household incomes.”
“about 51 percent of residents born in Somalia are living in poverty”
“I have a friend from Somalia who is a teacher in Finland.”
Thank you, this only reinforces what I have said. If you have skill you’ll get a job, if you don’t you I’ll be sent to clean toilets.
Thank you for your response Tony, you confirmed what I always have suspected that Finland in terms of immigration is not too different from others in Europe, the only difference is that they are less inclined to bend over backwards for immigrants and allow the erosion of their own culture and customs to make immigrants happy which I completely agree with.
The quoting of unemployment figures of immigrants and locals to determine racism in a country is laughable. Enrique and xyz may have a point if the 2 groups concerned are similar in terms of education, skills, language, culture and attitude but that is far from the case.
Unfortunately the calibre of immigrants Finland attracts is not very good in general for numerous reasons I answered before when xyz asked why so few immigrants came to Finland in the first place compared to other European countries. 67% of immigrants in Helsinki are not from the EU.
It seems that until the unemployment rates are level between immigrants and the natives or lower for immigrants, Enrique and xyz will continue to cry institutional racism for that very fact. Well don’t hold your breath guys as until there is a major social demographic overhaul in immigrants their levels will always be higher.
-‘It also shows that you have such extreme ideas on immigrants and otherness that you do it anonymously and with a demeaning name’
I didn’t know Klay was a demeaning name. Ever heard of Cassius Clay? Klay is a nick name for myslef.
–’Some drunks even called me the ‘posh english gentleman’ because they said I spoke like an aristocrat as I went to private boarding school in England when I was younger.
What do you think this sentence reveals about yourself? Some people like to step on others to lift themselves socially. This happens all the time. Different ethnic groups do it to others as people too.’
So let me get this correct Enrique, by having private education and speaking in upper class tones because of it that means I’m stepping on others to lift myslef socially? I thought it was just my parents wanting to give me the best start in life. Silly me, Enrique you are always right.
–Inclined to bend over backwards for immigrants and allow the erosion of their own culture and customs to make immigrants happy which I completely agree with.
Erosion of their culture and customs?! This is the funniest thing you have said. Go back to drinking tea at five pm and chatting with your “chaps.” Sure, I can see England in the 1950s, Tinky Toys, Austins and her empire. Time moves on and it is always restless.
I think your statements lack humility and are “high and dry?” Your name gives me the impression of a Briton – not an Englishman – who has found comfort in denigrating those who he or his parents once were. Or maybe he came from a country exclusion and prejudice were the rule. You already said before how much of a superior education you had compared with another person in this blog. Good for you! You really learned a lot!
67% of immigrants in Helsinki are not from the EU.
-Well that’s quite easy to explain. There are more job opportunities in other European countries than in Finland.
It seems that until the unemployment rates are level between immigrants and the natives or lower for immigrants, Enrique and xyz will continue to cry institutional racism for that very fact.
-Nope, I understand that the economic situation is quite bad at the moment. But I don’t understand that somebody needs to speak fluent Finnish to clean toilets or that they can’t hire me because I do not have a Finnish nationality.
Tony, if it reinforces you what I said, why do you always talk in general about a specific group?
Sorry Enrique it took so long, but there you go, all from my previous comments on your blog.
This is a hard solid fact, wherever they go they just do very badly, you just can’t keep denying it any longer. Blame their failure on Finland is totally unfair and highly offensive, to say the least.
http://dspace.mah.se/dspace/bitstream/2043/4291/1/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Economic%20Integration.pdf
Page 43: in Sweden – 69.5%, in Netherlands 71.4%
http://www.biu.ac.il/soc/ec/seminar/data/immig.pdf
Page 8: In Demark 86%.
http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches_pdfs/dispatches_immigrants.pdf
Unemployment: Britons 22%, Somalis 81%
Self-Employed: Britons 13%, Somalis 0%
Home ownership: Britons 75%, Somalis 4%
Claiming incoming support: Britons 4%, Somalis 39%
Claiming child benefit: Britons 14%, Somalis 40%
Living in social houses: Britons: 17%, Somalis 80%
Thank you. I will take a look at these. So why do you think Somalis have it worse than other ethnic groups? What solutions could you bring to correct the situation.
Enrique Enrique you have stooped to a level where issues are not being answered for but instead personal attacks are the name of the game. Would you really use these tactics in a civilised debate? Signs of a man backed into a corner not knowing what else to do. It doesn’t bother me carry on, you are the one sounding childish not me. I’m not going to take it to heart as you know nothing about me and can only go on assumptions which usually with you are completely wrong.
Maybe I should use this blog’s rulebook on racism and cry that Enrique is being racist to me as I’m of mixed race meaning he has a problem with all people of mixed race.
Discrimination is a hellhound that gnaws at Negroes in every waking moment of their lives to remind them that the lie of their inferiority is accepted as truth in the society dominating them.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Klay, the big difference is your denegrating attitude towards people who are less fortunate than yourself. What does “mixed race” mean? Aren’t we all mixed? As far as I am concerned you are a human being with a personality. What you are racially or ethnically is the least of my interests.
-‘So why do you think Somalis have it worse than other ethnic groups? What solutions could you bring to correct the situation.’
This isn’t rocket science, the more undeveloped and religious a country is the more difficult it is for those people to integrate into a modern Western society.
According to the think-tank Fund For Peace, Somalia is the most unstable country in the world. Afghanistan and Iraq are the 6th and 7th most unstable. That gives an indication on how backwards Somalia really is. The solution is to simply limit their numbers to a minimum.
Their plight and circumstances is no laughing matter but that doesn’t change the fact that they are a burden to any country in the EU. You can’t allow people into a country just because of sympathy.
–This isn’t rocket science, the more undeveloped and religious a country is the more difficult it is for those people to integrate into a modern Western society.
Then Europeans that moved to the New World in the nineteenth and twentieth century were destined to a life a poverty because they came, in some cases, from semi-feudal societies.
Nobody can deny the carnage and instability of Somalia. But when you lose a country to war, or have none like the Roma and Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, you get treated badly to put it simply.
You can allow a person into a country because they are bonafide refugees.
Enrique, I’m grateful that you have taken the time to report this unfortunate incident. I would like to say a couple things that might help in the discussion. Why events such as this still occour in place which has been deemed as the best country in the world? My guess is because there are people whose differences are rooted in fear. Whether overt, subtle or hidden ways in which prejudice is fueled by racism, and the power that lies behind it, which allows for these events to happpen in order to maintain a perceived status quo. Who benefits economically and politically directly from these acts? One has to look no further than that to see if this is the work of an isolated group or not.
-“Then Europeans that moved to the New World in the nineteenth and twentieth century were destined to a life a poverty because they came, in some cases, from semi-feudal societies. ”
Enrique, is it that hard to grasp that we do not live in 19th or early 20th century anymore?
World has changed! Needs for immigrants have changed.
Finland does not need illiterate or uneducated immigrants, we have no jobs for “no-habla” workers.
This is not USA, so things which are true in USA are not true here.
On another notice, try to find Aamulehti from wednesday. It had TWO somali immigrants who came in early nineties to Finland.
Guess what was their main issue? That Finland had too lax immigration rules, specially for Somalia.
These two Somali immigrants wated Finland to take as harsh immigration requirements as Denmark (which has resulted in practical end of attempts of Somalian family reunions).
These two guys wanted stuff like mandatory biopassports, restrictions on who could “reunite” family, refusal of accepting underage migrants, work and income requirements for reuniters and so forth.
Guess why? Because they were smart guys, they knew they lived in nice, safe and functional country. And they knew that if multicultural system was established, they would lose it. These IMMIGRANTS looked at Sweden, UK etc as examples which should NOT be followed.
Are these guys racists too?
-“You can allow a person into a country because they are bonafide refugees.”
And then you suffer as they are useless strain of resources who most likely refuse to integrate into society and start causing trouble.
xyz:
-“Nope, I understand that the economic situation is quite bad at the moment. But I don’t understand that somebody needs to speak fluent Finnish to clean toilets or that they can’t hire me because I do not have a Finnish nationality.”
Because you have to COMMUNICATE with someone to be able to do your job. To this date method of transferring knowledge directly to brain has not been invented. You will be working mostly with people who have little language skills.
Rule of thumb is that lower the level of job, more Finnish is required because your colleagues and immediate superiors are not going to be people with best language skills.
Oh, and because huge amount of communication can also be in written form, in Finnish because that is what most other workers understand.
How does it help anyone if we ruin Finland to be similar hellhole as Somalia by just opening borders to them because “life there is so bad”?
And diego, you should read more. This even was irrelevant act of some small loonie group. If you bothered to read responses to initial post of lies and deception, you would notice that over couple decades large number of arson attacks have taken against Finnish churches.
–Enrique, is it that hard to grasp that we do not live in 19th or early 20th century anymore?
Has it not dawned on you that human nature has not? Opportunties, fair treatment and lack of prejudice are still important factors that shape a person and society. It does not matter if “this” is not the USA or not. The fact is that the United States is one model that you can look at.
Moreover, things will never move forward with views as yours. You think that immigrants are so backward that they live in the stone age. Language is used, like skin color, as a way to discrimiante in Finland. You cannot get around that. It is an effective excluder. It is unfortunate for the immigrant and especially for Finnish society. Think of the pain and the cost.
With respect to the arson attack in Mosio, you would certainly play it down. An ever-increasing number of people don’t.
Because you have to COMMUNICATE with someone to be able to do your job. To this date method of transferring knowledge directly to brain has not been invented. You will be working mostly with people who have little language skills.
-Funny that there are so many nationalities here working together in English. English should be not a problem if you are so highly educated or am I wrong?
“So why do you think Somalis have it worse than other ethnic groups?”
There you go again, bringing race to the discussion, you just love it don’t you? I don’t think it’s about their ethnicity but culture/religion. Some culture/religion has, throughout the centuries, done better than others.
“What solutions could you bring to correct the situation.”
For a start, once it has been established that Somalis, as a group, will fail wherever they go, you could stop blame their failure in Finland, how about that?
Second, quite simple, Finland is in need of work immigrants to add to the social security, not take from it, isn’t? There you go…
–There you go again, bringing race to the discussion, you just love it don’t you? I don’t think it’s about their ethnicity but culture/religion. Some culture/religion has, throughout the centuries, done better than others.
I think it is one way to study a case. Power shifts from country/region to country/region. Today you are on top and then you aren’t any longer. It changes, which means that “culture/religion” may play a role but it is not the only decisive one. People thought before because a person was black in the United States he was “inferior.” Europeans came from semi-feudal societies in the nineteenth century but look at their children who grew up in socieites with better opportunties. Were your parents Brazilian and you were born in Europe? Are your parents, perhaps from Brazil and you were brought up in England?
There you go again over-generalizing and speaking of cultures as if they were robot-driven blobs without its members having a personality or free will. That way you see the world is very anglo NOT Brazilian; somewhere from England and Europe…
For a start, once it has been established that Somalis, as a group, will fail wherever they go, you could stop blame their failure in Finland, how about that?
-There are 30% who are working according to your report.
The report also says:
“The immigrants have experienced unemployment and difficulties on the host countries labor markets and many have given up in the search for work and are only living on social allowance.”
I would say a solution would be to get those people who gave up searching for work motivated and develop programs together with companies in order to get them back into work life and train them. The same could also be applied to young Finnish people who also suffer from higher unemployment in Finland.
“I think it is one way to study a case.”
Sorry but you lost me, are you saying that race plays a role on how a group end up? Well, I don’t…
But yes you are right, things change, Roma used to be a mighty power, today it struggles to pays its bills, however this is all good for history classes, when talking about policies the only thing that matter is the Finland’s interests.
And thank you for showing me the Brazilian way to see the world, without your help I wouldn’t have a clue .
If you are a second-generation immigrant, one of the first and foremost important matters is to accept who you are. This means that you have learned to appreciate both cultures – not stomp on one to raise your status in the one that may not accept you. Like I told Klay, I am not interested in your ethnic or cultural background but in you as a person.
Enrique, why the emails I receive with your comments are, many times, very different than what is written on the blog?
–Enrique, why the emails I receive with your comments are, many times, very different than what is written on the blog?
That is something you will have to answer. Immigration is a complex subject. When you no longer group people as good religion/culture-and-bad religion/culture, the topic takes a different context. Immigration is a complex topic and by simplifying it you only make it more complex because that is not how things work. Immigration isn’t perfect because there is a human element. No society is perfect because if they were they’d never change.
Sorry but are we still having the same conversation? Weren’t’ we talking about Somalis failing around the world, therefore not being Finland’s fault?
Tony, I may add or delete something in the comment.
–Somalis failing around the world.
What do you think is wrong with such a phrase? It is like saying: Why blacks in the United States are poor. Do you think that people want to underachieve? The more opportunities you give the more integration there is. Finland is a newcomer when it comes to integrating immigrants into it society. There are other issues like labor laws etc which may be antiquated in light of greater globalization. So, it is not only an immigrant thing but has many causes: immigrant, natives, political, labor laws etc…
Sorry I’m talking literally, many times what is written in the email is not the comment written in the blog. One example
This the email a got…
“…children who grew up in socieites with better opportunties.”
but I didn’t get the final phrase
“Were your parents Brazilian…”
Many times the difference is much bigger. Some phrases are completely different. Do you edit your comments are post it? Just to let you know, because if you don’t edit the comments than there is something wrong with the wordpress.
-“Has it not dawned on you that human nature has not? Opportunties, fair treatment and lack of prejudice are still important factors that shape a person and society. It does not matter if “this” is not the USA or not. The fact is that the United States is one model that you can look at. ”
Since when human nature makes you literate? Modern society like Finnish one requires you to read and write fluently, in Finnish. Your “human nature” can want all it desires, but facts are facts.
As for USA being model. Yeah, it is model of how NOT to do things. If you want to live in USA, leave Finland. I do not want Finland to be anything like USA, specially since Finnish history is nothing like US one. And our economy is nothing like US one.
USA is useless example as it has very little similarities to Finland.
-“Moreover, things will never move forward with views as yours. You think that immigrants are so backward that they live in the stone age.”
Because for all the practical purposes… They do.
How many IT-specialists Somalia has managed to export to Finland?
People there are roughly on level of 6 year old Finns. And that is generous considering that 6 year old Finn can fluently communicate with 95% of their surroundings.
Pretending that this is not massive issue is essentially hiding head in sand.
-“Language is used, like skin color, as a way to discrimiante in Finland.”
I demand proof of this. Your word is not proof.
-“You cannot get around that. It is an effective excluder. It is unfortunate for the immigrant and especially for Finnish society. Think of the pain and the cost. ”
It is unfortunate for stupid immigrant who refuses to grasp that they have to put their brain into hard work to learn Finnish.
Specially if they have no other useful skills which would compensate inability to communicate with natives.
Tell me, what good would Hattivatti cashier do to my store if they cannot communicate fluently with customers they are supposed to service? Hmm?
NOTHING!
As employer, is it cost effective to make every announcement in Finnish (for Finns who form bulk of my workers and which is my own native language) and then some other language. Not to mention hiring someone who needs to have everything taught to them by hand because THEY CANNOT READ THE INSTRUCTIONS?
NO it is NOT!
As an employer, would I want to hire someone to work as a nurse if they cannot present valid Finnish credentials?
No, because her making mistake results in me being in deep shit for hiring an incompetent KNOWING they are incompetent (lack of papers).
Immigrants exclude themselves due to lack of essential skills. It is their own stupidity which prevents you and them from realizing and correcting this.
-“With respect to the arson attack in Mosio, you would certainly play it down. An ever-increasing number of people don’t.”
Play it down? In what way? Do you have EVIDENCE that this is racially motivated attack? No. But when would you be disturbed by something like facts when you can launch yet another tirade of racism towards Finns.
Ever increasing number of people in Finland are tired of being treated as second class citizens by your kind. PerSu political success should act as a warning to you, Finns have had enough with your endless tirade of racism and demands.
Finns are slow to anger, but idiot immigrants are definitely succeeding in making them angry. And not just Finns! All over Europe natives are rising up against stupidity of politicians who insist in pretending that multiculturalism is anything but a disease.
-“Funny that there are so many nationalities here working together in English. English should be not a problem if you are so highly educated or am I wrong?”
And what was national language in that country mr Idiot? Oh yes, ENGLISH!
Of course you and your cleaner buddies talk English in Ireland. Except we were not talking about Ireland.
I will try to explain this in simple terms so even limited intellect can grasp it…
Finland
is NOT
Ireland
“Tony, I may add or delete something in the comment.”
Ok then, just wanted to let you know because i believe you don’t get emails from your own comments.
“What do you think is wrong with such a phrase? ”
Nothing, I didn’t say “I want them to fail” or “I hope they fail”, I said “they do fail”, and they do, this is the truth, it’s been proved beyond the doubt. It’s happening in many countries, not only in Finland.
“Finland is a newcomer when it comes to integrating immigrants into it society.”
True, but US is a master of it and yet can’t make it for Somalis.
“There are other issues like labor laws etc which may be antiquated in light of greater globalization.”
So the same laws with work very well for Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Brazilians and others don’t work for Somalis, and it’s the laws fault? Give me a break…
And what was national language in that country mr Idiot? Oh yes, ENGLISH!
-Well it’s an good example how immigrants from different countries can work together even so you consider them all as stupid.
And yeah it seems that you understand what I am writing here so I suppose it reaches your brain?
-”Language is used, like skin color, as a way to discrimiante in Finland.”
“I demand proof of this. ”
Actually I’d like to see some hard evidence if this as well, please.
–You DEMAND?! Nobody “demands” anything here, one asks and sometimes with sugar on top of it.
There are some studies on this. Here is one in Finnish: http://www.mediuutiset.fi/uutisarkisto/article127512.ece
http://www.nepalfinland.com/2009/10/discrimination-and-racism-cases-are.html
I can look for me links. I have spoken with many immigrants as well and have seen this type of discrimination before. Nothing new. Come to Finland to get a fuller picture.
You ask me these questions probably because you have not read enough Finnish history to understand the struggles Finnish-speaking Finns have had. You have probably heard of Snellman.
“She says discrimination in the hiring process boils down to a disregard for foreigners’ qualifications, and using language requirements in an unjust way.”
“Thors adds that typical discrimination means foreign job applicants are told vacancies have been filled — that is, until a Finnish person applies. Then the position is once again open.”
“We have a tendency in Finland of not recognizing skills from other countries,” says Thors.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2008/04/immigrant_jobseekers_face_discrimination_288988.html
Yes, xyz, and if I may add in the Etelä-Savo region only about 2% of the employers have hired immigrants! This figure is from 2008. This shows that something is wrong.
“She says…”
???????
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the the universe.”
Albert Einstein
“A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest… a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
Albert Einstein
“From the viewpoint of absolute truth, what we feel and experience in our ordinary daily life is all delusion. Of all the various delusions, the sense of discrimination between oneself and others is the worst form, as it creates nothing but unpleasant”
Dalai Lama
“You DEMAND?! Nobody “demands” anything here”
Is that for me? Haven’t I asked it politely as I usually do? I’ll have a look at these studies carefully, meanwhile…
“I have spoken with many immigrants…”
Unfortunately asking a so called “victim” if he believes the so called “criminal” is guilt, doesn’t quite fit into the hard evidence category.
“…as well and have seen this type of discrimination before”
What did you see exactly? Have some recruiter told you explicitly that he will/have used language do discriminate? Or you saw some cases that to your eyes appeared to be discrimination? And if you have indisputable facts, how many do you have? From 30 years living in a country with 5 millions people, how many indisputable cases could you testify in court if required? 1? 20? 100? 1000?
“Come to Finland to get a fuller picture.”
?????
“…you have not read enough Finnish history…”
I don’t care about Finnish history, I care about Finnish reality…
Ps. About Thors, dear Enrique, you know better than anyone that Thors is a politician, and as any politician she’ll say or do anything to try to shift the blame from her failed policies from the policies itself.
–I don’t care about Finnish history, I care about Finnish reality…
Tony, you should know that Finns take their history very seriously. In history you will find a lot of answers about who we are and why.
But then please answer the question I asked few days ago…
For a year and half we lived in a rivitalo in Kempele, how much racism do you think I should have encountered?
PS. Please notice that I’m not asking how much racism i have encountered but how much I should have…
Those are the best…talking about Finnish culture and don’t even know their own history. Even I read Finnish history books and I am not even Finnish 🙂
-Enrique ‘There you go again over-generalizing and speaking of cultures as if they were robot-driven blobs without its members having a personality or free will.’
Stereotypes exist because on the most part they are true otherwise they wouldn’t be made. When you talk about a large group of people the only way to summarise them is to generalise. There ofcourse will be exceptions. Some of the time in practical terms it’s impossible to go on a individual basis as it may be time consuming or expensive.
Here’s a few examples:
Dutch people are taller than Japanese
Finns get drunk more often than Italians
Somalians are more unemployable than Finns
How do these stereotypes come about? Data, stats, percentages and observation.
Why do people disagree with them? Because they usually belong in a group that is on the wrong end of the stereotype or it doesn’t fit their argument.
What makes them disagree with them? They are simply bias. It’s like asking a defendent’s mother on trial if thinks her son/daughter is guilty.
Notice how people only complain about bad stereotypes never about good steroetypes. If steroetypes are bad in their mind then it shouldn’t matter if it’s good or bad.
–Stereotypes exist because on the most part they are true otherwise they wouldn’t be made.
If you are into over-simplified generalizations about a group and the description satisfies your intellectual apetite, then ok. However, if you use stereotypes to keep alive hatred and prejudice of other group then it is another story. I think we are speaking of stereotypes as in racism.
If you read a book on eugenics from the 1920s by disgraced “academics” like Egene Fischer, you will note that it is based on stereotypes and the person’s prejudice NOT scientific knowledge. One of these was that blacks in Africa “were animals.”
Now, that concept of the Other ended up destroying Germany. Their hatred based on boloney theories and stereotypes murdered a lot of people.
“Notice how people only complain about bad stereotypes never about good steroetypes.”
One stereotype we never hear multiculturalists complaining about is that immigrants are hard workers, or immigration is beneficial. As we know, some immigrants are hard workers and some are beneficial, but not all…
Stereotypes…how stupid is this. There is a saying in Germany: “Die Finnen die Spinnen”. Do I regard every Finn now as an idiot just because of this? Not really…
Tony: Maybe you could explain why it should make sense to complain about an hard working immigrant?
And in the Somalian’s case Tony, they are nearly always non-benefical immigrants that has been proved in numerous countries. On a side note Tony, you look like Gus poyet (former Uruguay international footballer who has played for Chelsea).
“Tony, you look like Gus poyet…”
But I guarantee I don’t play as good as he does, have a good weekend my friend. Same to you amigo Enrique, I hope the weather is good in there.
Thai berry-pickers are being blatantly exploited in Finland:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Researcher+says+Thai+berry-pickers+are+being+blatantly+exploited+in+Finland/1135260220042
“I think we are speaking of stereotypes as in racism.”
Not necessarily, stereotypes by itself are neither bad or good, they are neutral, it’s all about how, and for witch purposes, you use tem. Just like a gun, it can be used to murder a innocent or to protect your family. I’ll give 2 examples…
1. Somalis are a burden for the country they go. This is a stereotype, however as extensively proved here by hard solid facts, it’s true, so ft used when drawing immigration policies this stereotype can be beneficial to the country.
2. Finland discriminate against foreigners. Another stereotype, however this one doesn’t have any solid facts to back it up, so when used to excuse the failures of some immigrants it’s very detriment to positive immigrants and the country in general.
Two loaded questions like a shotgun:
–1. Somalis are a burden for the country they go. This is a stereotype, however as extensively proved here by hard solid facts, it’s true, so ft used when drawing immigration policies this stereotype can be beneficial to the country.
Are they a “burden?” I love your use of verbs. What about racists? Aren’t they a bigger “burden” on society? At least Somalis don’t kill people in the same industrial manner as “racists” and people who have issues with other cultures. No, Tony, I disagree: racists are a greater menace to society than a group from Africa.
–2. Finland discriminate against foreigners. Another stereotype, however this one doesn’t have any solid facts to back it up, so when used to excuse the failures of some immigrants it’s very detriment to positive immigrants and the country in general.
Right, Tony, a staement from a person living in Ireland who does not speak Finnish. Your own stereotypes, however, reveal who you are.
“Tony, I disagree: racists are a greater menace to society than a group from Africa.”
Your opinion with a totally respect but also totally disagree.
“…a staement from a person living in Ireland who does not speak Finnish.”
Good try my friend…
“Your own stereotypes, however, reveal who you are.”
Why get personal? Have you counted how many personal attach you have made against me in the last few days? How many time have I done the same? Can’t you just fight my opinions, the same I fight yours?
–Why get personal? Have you counted how many personal attach you have made against me in the last few days?
If you are anonymous I cannot do anything about that. But if you try to be somebody you are not then that is another question. Isn’t insulting and writing off a whole religion and a group of people “getting personal?”
People can have opinions but when it comes to racism then a line must be drawn. Your statements are full of hatred and suspicion of certain groups. If you claim to be a Christian then the first thing you should do is look into this because it does poison your heart.
Enrique I check the two links you gave, is that what you call hard evidence? Really?
From the Virpi’s article, it says that immigrants often fell discriminated. Fell? Well between felling and actually encountering there is quite a difference. How much weight “I fell” would have in a court of law?
From the Nepalese website. Who wrote that article? I didn’t find any name. Anonymous? Is that acceptable? How about the story? A South Asian student? Who? a Finnish-African guy? A Master’s Degree student? Workplace on Helsinki, a person? Who are those people? Nameless people? And yet their testimony has weight? And my don’t? Reported on emails????
You also said that you have seeing cases of discrimination yourself, so I asked questions about it, give us some information, but I got just silence.
And yet you attach me personally? You make a serious accusation, again, and bring no solid evidence, again, to back it up and it’s all about my stereotypes? Well my stereotypes were based on reports from the US census, US National Counter Terrorism Center, Malmo University, Aarhus University and Channel 4 (ok this last one is not that great I admit).
–You also said that you have seeing cases of discrimination yourself, so I asked questions about it, give us some information, but I got just silence.
Racism that I have suffered in this country is my personal business. For some people it is difficult to speak about in public. I will ask you the same question again: Why this passion to show that everything is hunky dory in Finland on the racial prejudice front?
Here are some points from the Shadow Report on Racism in Europe 2008 for Finland:
One common problem faced by immigrants in Finland is that they rarely find jobs appropriate to their educational qualifications. It is not unusual to find the holder of a PhD degree employed in low wage sectors such as cleaning17. These low wage jobs can, however, be regarded as entry points to higher wage levels, but this rarely happens. Employers justify this underemployment by pointing out that immigrants do not have sufficient Finnish language skills, although as has been noted, many of the job opportunities denied to foreigners and immigrants do not require these language requirements.
There is a general suspicion that immigrant employees are not offered the same promotion opportunities as native Finns. The result is resentment, apathy, low productivity and less commitment towards the job and required tasks.
Another problem encountered by immigrants in the Finnish job market is low wages. Because immigrants find it hard to get jobs in Finland, they usually fall prey to unscrupulous employers, who offer them jobs on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. Desperate, the majority have no choice but to accept unfair wage terms.
Statistical evidence indicates the existence of ethnic or racial discrimination in housing allocation. Families and children, whose mother tongue is not Finnish live in rented public houses and they are, in general, much more crowded than their Finnish counterparts. Almost 75% of foreign language-speaking children live in rented public houses. On the other hand, only 23% of their Finnish or Swedish counterparts live in these kinds of housing facilities. Somali-speaking children live in the most cramped conditions averaging some 12 m² per individual. On the other hand, their Finnish and Swedish-speaking counterparts enjoy, on average some 25 m².
Children from multicultural backgrounds are often the target of bullying, and racist name calling. Children from multicultural backgrounds are often the target
of bullying, and racist name calling. In a study carried out in 2006 more than 55 % of children from immigrant background reported that that they were being
bullied at school. The figure for Finnish children was 35%.
Close to 60% of immigrant and foreign children belong to the lowest income groups.
The demographics of Finnish society are changing fast. More than 3 300 crosscultural
marriages are reported each year and more and more multicultural
children are being born from these unions. After years of keeping the door firmly
bolted to outsiders, Finland has finally acknowledged, like all industrialised countries, that it needs immigrant labour to propel its economy into the future.
This, for example, will mean that, in the future, Finnish citizenship will not be defined by colour. In short, Finland is inexorably on the way to becoming a fully fledged multicultural society.
This integration should be a two-way process in
which both parties interact fairly and learn from each other. These changes do not take place overnight, and sadly, intolerance, racist violence and bigotry will
continue. The only way to effectively combat these negative social behaviours is through education and other forms of intervention.
http://cms.horus.be/files/99935/MediaArchive/national/Finland%20-%20SR%202008.pdf
Thank you xyz! No matter how you spell such a disgraceful matter, the more “evidence” Tony will ask. It is a bit like asking can you prove that there are cars in Finland. We had the same discussion when the EU published a report on racism against Somalis and Russians in Finland.
“But if you try to be somebody you are not then that is another question.”
So now that I’m not anonymous anymore I’m than somebody else, who am I then? How about all documents I posted here? Are they also all fake? Unbelievable…
Isn’t insulting and writing off a whole religion and a group of people “getting personal?”
Not against you, I have always treat you with respect, haven’t I? Everything I have said here is back up by facts, but yes, sometimes the truth is offensive, however it’s still the truth. Don’t you think it’s insulting to Finns when you say that there is discrimination i Finland but yet we see no prove of it? Isn’t that also “getting personal”?
You said once that you are not a liberal, if you said than you are not, however you are using a very common liberal tactic, lets discredit the messenger so we don’t have to deal with the massage. The pattern is so simple…
1. I start say that Somalis failing in Finland is not Finland’s fault because they do everywhere.
2. Deny it and ask proof of it.
3. I post here a overwhelming amount of proof.
3. You attach me personally. Because I was able to prove what I said, I then “hate”.
“Why this passion to show that everything is honky dory in Finland on the racial prejudice front?”
Because I haven’t faced it myself and so far nobody has showed hard evidence about it. Therefore keep telling the Finland discriminate is highly offensive , and if I may say, very “personal” to Finns.
Sorry but anonymous immigrants telling that hey felt being discriminated is not a hard evidence to me, and it’ll not hold 2 seconds in a court of law.
Just to give you an example…
This article you wrote about the attach to the temple, as I said it’s just wrong, you are giving the motive before know who the criminals are. So I heavily criticize it, but…
Did I call you a liar? Did I call this blog a Finnish bashing blog? Did I call you a bad journalist? Did I accuse you of hate Finland? Did I ask you to review your Christian principles?
No I did not. I, as always, was concentrated on the aspects that you said that I think it’s wrong but didn’t go after you personally.
Tony: Read the report I have posted.
At least I’ve never been called a traitor in here… not yet?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/06/black-tea-party-activists-called-traitors/
“”I’ve been told I hate myself.”
Well I have been told I hate others, close enough…
“Black Republicans find themselves always having to prove who they are”
I know the felling…
“You have to be honest and true to yourself. What am I supposed to do, vote Democratic just to be popular? Just to fit in?”
Well maybe I should do that to, accept that Finland discriminate just to fit in…
“Opponents have branded the tea party as a group of racists”
Yep, that’s what they do so they don’t need to deal with it…
“I’ve gotten the statement, ‘How can you not support the brother?'”
How can’t you? And how can I not support my “brother” immigrants? Shame on us…
“Why can’t we speak openly and honestly if we disagree?”
Because it’s inconvenient…
PS. all the comments in this article are followed by the names of who said it.
Tony, it’s weekend. Relax a bit.
A simple question to Enrique, xyz or any other person.
Why does Finland need immigrants?
The aging population theory doesn’t wash. Remember immigrants get old too you know. Median age for Finland 42.3 years. Countries that have large immigrant populations but still have a median age over 40 years include Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Netherlands, Canada, and the U.K. It hasn’t helped those countries and it won’t help Finland. Also crucially Finland has a higher fertility rate than any of those countries meaning it’s population will get older at a slower rate.
Finland’s youth (under 25 years) and immigrant unemployment is also amongst the highest in the EU.
Again I ask why does Finland need immigrants?
–Why does Finland need immigrants?
New taxes in order to finance our comprehensive welfare system and pensions. Finland’s output will suffer in this decade due to the decline in labor. This does not mean that immigration will be a panacea for its demographic woes. I think I mentioned before that Finland would need to get 2 million immigrants by 2040 in order to maintain the present age structure (ie 17% are over 65 years). However, Argentina’s capital Buenos Aires had in 1914 49.4% foreigners.
Even though robots can play a role in society I don’t know if I want to live in one (I won’t be alive by then) that is ruled by pensioners and robots. How would it change our society?
You should remember that immigrants in England and elsewhere in Europe are here because they DO play an important role in the economy. Europe would not have any illegal immigrants if there weren’t a demand for their labor as well.
The unemployment you find in Finland has a lot to do with the recession and antiquated labor laws that favor the present system: staffers versus non-staffers. Thus the former has all the benefits will the latter (probably about 25% of the workforce and growing) does not. Hiring people in Finland must be more flexible and less costly than now.
‘–Why does Finland need immigrants?
New taxes in order to finance our comprehensive welfare system and pensions. Finland’s output will suffer in this decade due to the decline in labor.’
The problem is this is a short term fix. As I said before immigrants get old too so let’s say for example a million immigrants are brought in over the next decade. Ofcourse Finland’s GDP (Gross domestic product) will go up but solely based on the increase in population. But that doesn’t mean that the quality of life will be enhanced aswell, it might actually go down as there will be added pressure on the infrastructure (education,health,transport,welfare, and social services).
Also if the rate of immigrants coming in falls after that decade then in 3 decades or so when that massive initial influx of immigrants enter retirement age then we are left with the same problem now but even more serious as the numbers concerned are larger. That’s what is happening in places like Germany where the total population is actually decreasing now. It’s a vicious circle. It’s the baby boomer’s fault for the ageing population happening now but in future it may be because of the mass immigration in a short space of time. The key is increasing the fertility rate. In Finland’s case the figure is 1.73 children. If this is boosted to 2.1 then the replacement level will be even meaning the same age demographics will be maintained. Somehow incentives are needed to be given to try and make that happen by giving tax breaks, amplifying child care services and maternity leave and further protecting the job security rights of pregnant women.
The reason why I mentioned the unemployment stats is that if Finland is already struggling with the relative few immigrants it has now surely an even further increase in immigrants would create more problems with unemployment not to mention social unrest.
Considering that Finland has the best education system in the world yet it’s youth unemployment is abysmal shows that even highly educated individuals of any race or nationality are struggling to find employment. So the last solution should be to increase that stiff competition. The priority should be to sort out the existing problems first by making the economy more flexible in order to create more jobs. Easier said than done ofcourse.
-‘Europe would not have any illegal immigrants if there weren’t a demand for their labor as well.’
I disagree. The reason is that they are cheaper labour with most working below the minimum wage level with no need to apply for work permits or visas which can be lengthly and expensive as they are illegal.
There will always be illegal workers no matter what the state of the economy is in developed countries for those reasons. Interestingly most of these illegal human traffickers are foreign too.
–Considering that Finland has the best education system in the world yet it’s youth unemployment is abysmal shows that even highly educated individuals of any race or nationality are struggling to find employment.
What a paradox, no? xyz posted something intersting on the topic.
Immigration is not a social illness. Exclusion and prejudice are.
These last few days have shown if a government has the will to do something it will nearly always find a way (lawfully ofcourse).
Example:- The expulsion of Roma gypsies by Nicolas Sarkozy and the French government.
The consequences of that action:- None. Actually other countries in Europe may follow suit now. It’s a matter of who has the balls to take the first step fend off the inevitable criticism from the looney left press.
Finland has no requirement to take refugees or asylum seekers. They are recommended to take a certain number by the UN but it is not compulsary as Japan has shown again without any consequences.
–Example:- The expulsion of Roma gypsies by Nicolas Sarkozy and the French government.
This is another shameful example of French immigration policy. NOT an example that should be emulated. What about one of the basic freedoms of Europe: the freedom to move from one country to the other.
You are living in the wrong decade never mind century.
So let me get this correct Enrique in your dream of dreams you would want Helsinki to resemble Malmö with 30% born abroad not counting second generation immigrants? Is that your multicultural vision for Helsinki?
Klay, what kind of a question is that? Helsinki is already multicultural demographically because seven percent of the population is from somewhere else. I will reapeat again: immigration is not a social illness. Like any family you have to have healthy memebers. Dysfunctionality happens when there is exclusion.
Intercultural Cities – Joint action of the Council of Europe and the European Union:
http://www.interculturaldialogue2008.eu/968.0.html
http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/cultureheritage/culture/Cities/Default_en.asp
Oslo Video:
http://webtv.coe.int/index.php?VODID=84
Klay, good questions but the important one is, if Finland needs so much work immigrants why than such wish to bring in people who have no chance to get work and rather than add to the social security will take from it?
Simple, this question was answered last year, I asked… “Hypothetically, is Finland didn’t need work immigration at all would you still call for more immigrants?” The answer was a clear YES. It’s all about follow Labor’s footsteps, use immigration as a tool for social reengineer the country.
That’s why people like you and I are inconvenient, we presents facts with shows the ugly face of this ideas, and against facts you just can’t argue, so we are instead attacked on a personal level.
Try to notice the pattern here, when we say our opinions we are debated, when we bring facts to support it we are attacked.
“Immigration is not a social illness.”
Absolutely not, bad immigration is.
–That’s why people like you and I are inconvenient, we presents facts with shows the ugly face of this ideas, and against facts you just can’t argue, so we are instead attacked on a personal level.
Yes, Tony, we are all in the dark about immigration throwing flowers and preaching love. Even the way you look at people who think differently from you is black and white. I have told you that since immigration is a human phenomenon it is never perfect.
What is “bad immigration?”
“… immigration is a human phenomenon it is never perfect.”
You’re right about it, but it can be much better than it’s, and depending of the next election results it’ll be…
“What is “bad immigration?”
Immigration with doesn’t take in consideration the host country’s best interest.
Good immigration, however, will bring in qualified workers who will easily adapt to the main system and won’t demand appeasement or try to transform the country.
–You’re right about it, but it can be much better than it’s, and depending of the next election results it’ll be…
People who back a party like the True Finns are a minority and pretty unstable as a group. It may show voter protest against the present parties in government, but by no means it means a huge shift.
–Good immigration, however, will bring in qualified workers who will easily adapt to the main system and won’t demand appeasement or try to transform the country.
“Appeasement” is a “Tiwazian” word. I am surprised that you use it. Time changes, cultres change and adapt to new circumstances in order to survive.
“Yes, Tony, we are all in the dark about immigration throwing flowers and preaching love.”
No you’re not, as I said you know exactly what you are doing.
You will see in 20-25 years time regardless of immigrant percentages that actually the average age will be younger or at least stay roughly level for the next decade after that. Why? Because in 20-25 years time the baby boomers will start to drop off the face of the Earth in large numbers and just before that time there would have been more people over 75 years than ever before. After that period the number of people over 75 years would have dropped.
–You will see in 20-25 years time regardless of immigrant percentages that actually the average age will be younger or at least stay roughly level for the next decade after that.
OK, let’s take out our pocket calculators and “see” the future. It is as simple as that, right? Only a bit of mathematics will reveal who we are as a society? Did you buy a flapjacket and helmet? You better stock up on a lot of food as well because it is going to be “a long war.” As society becomes more diverse you will also shrink into an ant.
Your arguments are ridiculous and arrogant.
If you want, ask your Finnish girlfriend or friend to translate the following short column by Ana Maria Gutierrez. It sums up what happened in Sweden:
http://amgs.puheenvuoro.uusisuomi.fi/44283-eriarvostuksen-varjo-laskeutuu-pohjolaan
xyz:”Well it’s an good example how immigrants from different countries can work together even so you consider them all as stupid.”
By speaking the local language. Local language of Finland is Finnihs (or Swedish) NOT English.
Learn language, get job.
“Are they a “burden?” I love your use of verbs. What about racists? Aren’t they a bigger “burden” on society? At least Somalis don’t kill people in the same industrial manner as “racists” and people who have issues with other cultures. No, Tony, I disagree: racists are a greater menace to society than a group from Africa. ”
They are burden by not contributing beneficially to society. They live off the welfare.
You yourself try to justify the “need” for immigrants by saying we need someone to pay for welfare.
Well how in hell will immigrants who leech off that welfare help us PAY FOR IT?
They don’t, they just overburden it further.
I also demand that you show me evidence of racist murders in Finland. You may also extend this to Europe if you wish. Say for last 3 decades.
Off the top of my head comes one racist murder. Theo van Gogh. Murdered by racists, except they were the type of racists you Enrique never hold responsible for their own deeds or failures!
-““Appeasement” is a “Tiwazian” word. I am surprised that you use it. Time changes, cultres change and adapt to new circumstances in order to survive.”
So how about immigrants change their cultures to fit host culture. Oh wait! It is not fair to expect immigrants to actually bother to do anything. Instead they, indeed, must be appeased by tearing apart culture which built fully functional society.
Cultures change yes, Finnish culture changes too. It changes the way FINNS want it to change, not the way you foreigners (and that includes you Enrique, you are not Finn despite having passport) want.
Else I demand that you foreigners immediately change all cultures to fit MINE. And to justify it I could go abroad live few months here and there. What? It’s not fair anymore for me as minority to demand majority to change?
Minorities adjust to majorities. That is the way world works. Get over your feelings of supremancy multiculturalist racists.
As for xyz and his study. I am prepared to guess that rate of bullying students was determined by asking kids “are you victim of bullying”.
Which results in multicultural/immigrant kids answering yes if they have not been raised as Finns.
Not because they are bullied, but because they do not necessarily understand the dynamics of interactions in Finnish culture and thus feel (wrongly) that any deviation from their (minority) culture as bullying.
That is the problem of having questionaries as “proof”. Victim never gives objective analysis of their situation and they are thust…
worthless.
By speaking the local language. Local language of Finland is Finnihs (or Swedish) NOT English.
-Finnihs or Finnish?