STOCKHOLM, Sept 20 (Reuters) – Fredrik Reinfeld became Sweden’s first sitting center-right prime minister to win re-election, but was deprived of a majority by the first-time entry into parliament of an anti-immigrant party.
Analysts had said before Sunday’s election that a hung parliament, with Reinfeldt’s center-right Alliance coalition having no overall majority, would unsettle investors and the Swedish crown weakened in early trading on Monday.
Click here to inform yourself on who the Sweden Democrats are.
If there is a comment that can be made concerning Sunday’s elections in Sweden, it is how much it will encourage Finns to vote for the anti-immigration True Finns, which have five members in parliament.
“how much it will encourage Finns to vote for the anti-immigration True Finns”
Hopefully enough…
–Hopefully enough…
What, Sweden Democrats winning about 5% of the vote is a “smashing victory?” I think people are more worried about what that 5% thinks than a threat to the country and how it will impact our elections in April. Prime Minister Mari Kiviniemi, who is very sensible and ouspoken against racism, said today that the result in Sweden will not impact Finland greatly because the sitaution is different.
So, as they say it’s “small fries.”
I don’t know how Sverigedemokraternas “success” will affect our election in the spring, if at all. The sad truth is that the Basic Finns will most likely win a significantly higher share of the votes than SD have done in yesterday’s Swedish election. That said, it is difficult to directly compare the two parties. As distasteful as the True Finns are, SD are in a different league of nastiness and racism. Read their immigration political policy, it’s scary. Look at their history, their grounding in openly extremely racist groups (i.e. Bevara Sverige svenskt). They make Soini almost seem like a nice guy in comparison.
You can watch SDs election advert (which the main commercial channel TV4 refused to show without censoring) here for an idea of what they’re like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRRdth8AHc&feature=related
Hi Jonas, it is worrying but we are talking about a minority. I personally believe that let them speak as loud as they want (without slander) so that people can see who they are. The True or Basic Finns as you like to call them are another joke. The SMP imploded once and so will the “Persut” because they are an unstable group politically. I personally see capitalizing politically on the backs of immigrants (the scapegoats) as the worst form of opportunism.
Or maybe their popularity has increased as more people are finally starting to realise that multiculturalism and mass immigration is a failing policy. People don’t vote for parties they disagree with.
Klay, I don’t understand what you are saying. Let’s look at it closer: (1) people realise the multiculturalism and (2) mass immigration is a failing policy.
In your first point do you mean multiculturalism as giving immigrants the same rights as natives? If you are against this, it means that we will have to change the constitution, laws and our values as a society. Is that what the 5% (read about five percent of voters) are saying in Sweden?
When you speak of “mass” immigration I have no idea what “mass” means. You use this adjective like “uncontrolled” and in reality you haven’t given us any figures on how to back such a claim. I told you before that most immigrants that come here because there is a demand for their labor. Globalization works in many ways.
-‘In your first point do you mean multiculturalism as giving immigrants the same rights as natives? If you are against this, it means that we will have to change the constitution, laws and our values as a society.’
No, Everyone in a country should have equal rights, immigrants and natives alike. Let me define multiculturalism
‘Multiculturalism is the acceptance or promotion of multiple ethnic cultures, applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations.’
It’s the opposite of cultural assimilation which I’m in favour of.
‘Cultural assimilation is a socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture. It is opposed to affirmative philosophy (for example, multiculturalism) which recognizes and seeks to maintain differences.’
-‘When you speak of “mass” immigration I have no idea what “mass” means. You use this adjective like “uncontrolled” and in reality you haven’t given us any figures on how to back such a claim.’
It’s all relative. What would be mass immigration for Finland wouldn’t be for Germany. Why? because Germany’s population is 15 times that of Finland’s. An indicator is a sudden change in the percentage of immigrants in a country in a short space of time.
-‘I told you before that most immigrants that come here because there is a demand for their labor.’
I hope this is a wind up. You really do make me laugh Enrique with your ignorance. This statement has to be your biggest lie to date and you have told many porky pies to me and others. If that’s the case then why in nearly every country in the EU is immigrant unemployment higher than native unemployment? Because they are wanted? No because that wouldn’t make sense. More because they are unwanted. How do you explain Finland’s situation with (as of 2009) 7% native unemployment but 20% immigrant unemployment. The unemployment specifically for Somalis and Iraqis are hold your breath ladies and gentlemen 53% and 62% respectively? So how are Somalis and Iraqis wanted then Enrique in your twisted mind? And please don’t use the racism or discrimination card as an excuse as non-white immigrants such as Indians and Chinese actually have a lower unemployment than even Finns themselves.
–It’s the opposite of cultural assimilation which I’m in favour of.
Have you studied our laws? Don’t our laws permit cultural diversity? Isn’t that a choice that a citizen can make in a democratic society? In fact you areasking to change this civil right and the only way you can enforce your assimilation model is by watering down minorities’ rights. Your argument is a good example of double-talk.
Tell me where assimilation has worked and how many generations it has taken?
When you state that multiculturalism seeks to maintain difference, you are only repeating that right to cultural diversity in a society.
–An indicator is a sudden change in the percentage of immigrants in a country in a short space of time.
Apart from seeing cultures living in time warps, you think that cultures are so frail that they will wilt if exposed to other ones. Nothing could be further from the truth. You did not define “mass” immigration.
–You really do make me laugh Enrique with your ignorance. This statement has to be your biggest lie to date and you have told many porky pies to me and others.
So I am now a “liar” after you give me shoddy opinions founded bigotry and hatred? You have to look at your prejudice and work on it because life must be a bitch for you with so many different kinds of people living in the same city as you. In everything there are good and bad points. In our society we have people who think like you and those who think like me and many other variations of the latter.
Even if we disagree there is a huge difference: I respect other cultures and their members you don’t. One matter I never understood is how ungrateful some people can be that they can go around insulting others as if they were god.
“So, as they say it’s “small fries.””
You are quite right, that’s why we can’t stop the activism just yet, there is still a lot work to do. This election can be the last opportunity to keep Finland a place where our children can grow up safely and we can’t miss it.
-‘In fact you areasking to change this civil right and the only way you can enforce your assimilation model is by watering down minorities’ rights.’
I’m not diluting anyone’s rights at all. Laws can be passed that promotes cultural assimilation such as the banning the construction of minarets in Switzerland, or banning the Niqab (veil) for women and the hijab in public schools in France, or not have every public document translated into every single language of this Earth (even Somalian where a large portion of their own population can’t even read it). These are just a few. I always have said when there’s a will there’s always a way.
If you deem that as diminishing rights then it seems that your definition of rights is allowing people to do whatever they please like headless chickens. I guess that not being able to drink alcohol in public spaces, or buy alcohol after a certain time, or walk around naked in the streets are taking away my human rights as these activities are not harming anyone. Should I complain about that too as violating my rights?
-‘Tell me where assimilation has worked and how many generations it has taken?’
Unfortunately countries have chosen the multicultural path instead and that has been shown with evidence to be failing. If immigrantion on a large scale is so amazing then why are right-wing across Europe gaining popularity? If it was a success anti-immigration parties would be annihilated in elections not entering parliaments in countries such as Denmark or Sweden for the first time.
-‘you think that cultures are so frail that they will wilt if exposed to other ones. Nothing could be further from the truth. You did not define “mass” immigration.’
Any country whose population suddenly increases at a fast rate whether due to immigration or rise in fertility of it’s citizens is not beneficial to the country in the short run. A gradual increase is much better. Why? To allow time for the infrastructure (education,health,transport,social services) to catch up and adjust. You can’t define mass immigration as a figure as it’s different for each country. I already have explained the indicator for it happening.
-‘I respect other cultures and their members you don’t.’
Wrong again. It’s more like the opposite. If you and I went to live in let’s say Japan for a year I would try my best to fit in their culture and behave the way they do, learn their history and language. You would complain if anything is different to the way your used to, demand they to speak English to you, and tell them how their culture and society could be better. This is what the majority of immigrants are doing to Finland. Now who is respecting foreign culture more on that basis? If I’m in someone’s backyard I follow their rules and the same rule applies if they are in my backyard. I don’t go around like some loony multiculturalist telling people around the world in their own country the way I like things to be done.
–Unfortunately countries have chosen the multicultural path instead and that has been shown with evidence to be failing.
Come on, you can do better than that. We have lots of immigrants that moved from Europe to the Americas. We have slaves that were forced to move to the Americas as well. We have culturally diverse societies already in the nineteenth century to start with. Why, then, have we moved away from these assimilation models, which don’t work. Such models only worked in the minds of those that dominated these minorities.
–I’m not diluting anyone’s rights at all. Laws can be passed that promotes cultural assimilation such as the banning the construction of minarets in Switzerland…
I would debate that. It’s ok to limit other people’s rights as long as they don’t touch yours, right? Why don’t you suggest a culture police that can go around and tell people how to behave?
“Why don’t you suggest a culture police that can go around and tell people how to behave?”
How about a thought police to tell people what to think?
Actually we have, it’s called society, you have the right to behave the way you want, however you will face the consequences of it.
Tony, so you don’t speak Finnish? What do you think will be consequences for you in the Finnish society?
-‘We have slaves that were forced to move to the Americas as well.’
Are you really comparing the enslaving of people and forcibly transporting them across the Atlantic Sea with many dying and the ones who did survive being treated worse than their master’s dog to cultural assimilation. You really take these analogies to the extreme. I already complained the irrevance of the halocaust analogy to earlier arguments. You know full well that assimilation doesn’t have any of these practices.
-‘We have lots of immigrants that moved from Europe to the Americas’
At that time there was no dominant culture that had existed for centuries. The indigenous natives’ culture had been destroyed by their conquerors. There was no dominant culture to assimilate into. The same does not apply to Europe.
Yes Tony you are right, then these people who behave the way they want to are puzzled as to why society has marginalised them. But remember Tony they always have their racism card in their pocket, along with ask the audience, phone a friend, and 50/50.
And who gives them the cards? The left, of course. Here is an interesting article from James Taranto for the Wall Street journal, “Why the Left Needs Racism”.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704671904575193921155425154.html
Thanks, Tony, I’ll read the Journal article later. Why is racism only a left-wing thing? Isn’t it also an important issue among the right?
By the way xyz that Maz Jobrani stand up comedian is quite funny. In Britain there’s Omid Djalili another Iranian stand up comedian. The sad thing is if a white old man was telling the exact same jokes people would brand him racist. If something is correctly defined to be racist then it shouldn’t matter who’s the perpatraitor.
Klay, good one mate. Have you seen Bad Boys II? Have counted how many times, during the movie, Will Smith and Martin Lawrence call themselves Nigger?
Yes and any hip hop music too. But a white person saying it, ‘oh my god, oh no he didn’t!!!’ It’s hypocrisy and double standards at it’s simpliest. Unfortunately the hippie liberal douchebags are so deluded that they don’t even realise that fact and then they have the nerve to preach about equality.
Simple, because calling racism has been a way to win votes for democrats, just another political tool. Make the group believes that the other side is against them and only you wants to help and you have their votes. Where would Labor be today without Muslims votes?
I’m not claiming GOP is a party of saints, but it hasn’t used race as political tool. Racism in America is just too small. Most of it is just made up by the left. the Europe left is just following the democrats footsteps.
And it’s a handy excuse for minorites to use if things don’t go their way.
y the way xyz that Maz Jobrani stand up comedian is quite funny. In Britain there’s Omid Djalili another Iranian stand up comedian. The sad thing is if a white old man was telling the exact same jokes people would brand him racist. If something is correctly defined to be racist then it shouldn’t matter who’s the perpatraitor.
-Klay, seems you didn’t get the point of the video. He makes fun of people who think that he knows terrorists just because he is from the Middle East.
But he also makes generalisations about nationalities and races which would be deemed inappropriate if he was a white old man.
A simple off the topic question. In Finland when applying for jobs do you have to enclose a photo of yourself on your CV or job application?
He is focusing actually on people like Tony who thinks that every Muslim is a terrorist.
Klay: Are you kidding…you want to talk about Finnish culture and then you don’t even know if you need a photo for your CV if you want to apply for a job in Finland. You guys are really clowns.
Have I ever said that I have worked or lived in Finland? No. When have I ever talked about Finnish culture? Never. Find any comment of mine which proves these facts are wrong. Only talked about multiculturalism, religion and immigrant behaviour which when I last checked did not occur in Finland only. So shut your mouth and do some research before you start throwing accusations at me. I’ve been to Finland numerous times.
–So shut your mouth and do some research before you start throwing accusations at me. I’ve been to Finland numerous times.
Is this how you behave in real life? Shut your mouth? Wow, you amaze me everyday more. There is definitely a character defect here. I don’t think even Tiwaz has not been as rude as that.
We can disagree but let’s not throw punches, ok?
You are like a little boy xyz, offer no insight or view on anything, just agree unconditionally with Enrique or provide links and quotes like a robot.
You see what I mean I ask a simple innocent question that only needs a yes/no answer and I get a response like that. Good riddance for Finland to you xyz.
Why should I disagree with Enrique if I think that he is right? I know the pros and cons of Finland. I have Muslims and Christian friends. I think I am able to make a decision which is not only based on Stereotypes.
-‘I think I am able to make a decision which is not only based on Stereotypes.’
That’s why Britain has a higher level of multiculturalism, more immigrants, more refugees, more asylum seekers, more ethnic minorities, more everything in terms of people than Finland or Ireland apart from Finns themselves or Irish pikes. But I’m the one going on Stereotypes? Another silly comment from you xyz. I don’t live in Antartica you know.
You complain about other people going to certain countries but you yourself want to apply for a job in Finland. Do you think you are something special that you can go everywhere and others should not?
I will apply for a specific job in different companies in Finland after I finish my PhD. The large majority of people in the job do not have a PhD. Who knows what will happen. But 1 thing for sure is if I don’t get the job I’m looking for I will not whinge, moan, cry institutionalised racism and proclaim that all Finns are racist like a lot have in this Blog.
Who am I to tell people where they can or can’t go. I just don’t agree with the immigration policies and multiculturalism.
Nobody said that all Finns are racist. If you don’t agree with multiculturalism then you should stay at home.
-‘If you don’t agree with multiculturalism then you should stay at home.’
Dad from 1 country, mum from another country, born in another country, raised in another country, spent latter education in another country, and lived in 3 other countries for over a year. That’s 8 countries and can qualify to hold a passport for 5 of them (3 in the EU). So please tell me xyz where is my home?
If I had a nickel every time immigrants get outraged because an immigrant voice a critical opinion about something in Finland and a Finnish skin head tell him to go back home…
Dad from 1 country, mum from another country, born in another country, raised in another country, spent latter education in another country, and lived in 3 other countries for over a year. That’s 8 countries and can qualify to hold a passport for 5 of them (3 in the EU). So please tell me xyz where is my home?
-So why do you complain about multiculturalism. You are even a product of multiculturalism.
-‘So why do you complain about multiculturalism. You are even a product of multiculturalism.’
Yes I am a product of multiculturalism but unfortunately as a result I don’t have a sense of belonging for any particular country. That doesn’t mean I have to be in favour of it. Should all black people like Obama? Should all Finns like alcohol? Should all Chinese like gambling? There are exceptions in every group. I wouldn’t want the same for my children. Would prefer them to be born, raised and live in 1 country only.
I think your problem is more that you were not able to built a social network because you moved to so many different places.
On the other hand…I have also lived in 8 countries and have friends everywhere….
Well you thought wrong xyz no suprise there.
“Yes I am a product of multiculturalism…”
Sorry Klay you may be wrong there. Multiculturalism is a group of policies design to create one kind of society. US has had many cultures since its foundation however multiculturalism as such is quite new. No long ago many aspects of non Judeo-Christian cultures were not encouraged and in some cases not even allowed. If you see pictures of the slaves they were all wearing European clouts when not in the field.
I, like you, come from parents born in different countries, mom Italian, my Spanish, I’m Brazilian, however currently we live in Ireland and we follow basically the Irish customs and rules.
Let me give you an example. Finnish people is crazy about sauna. My wife has taken my son there since he was born. We are member of a leisure center with a very nice sauna, but children under 16 are not allowed in. Even sauna is an important part of my wife’s culture we never demanded be allowed to take our children there.
So, a family with many cultures but yet following mono-culturalism as way to behave. Some call it assimilation, or “when in Rome…”.
Be carful when debating the left, it can be quite trick, once they lack intellectual clarity and the ability to develop a coherent line of thinking, they usually mix terms up, so you think you answer one question when answering another.
–Yes I am a product of multiculturalism…”
I did not understand a sentence of your argument. You respecting Irish culture because they don’t allow you to go to a sauna if you are over 16?! And about the slaves? I do not understand anything. Did you visit an Irish pub? 🙂
Well you thought wrong xyz no suprise there.
-Another possibility would be that you just have an identity crisis. Maybe you should just accept how and who you are instead of what you want to be.
Tony: You are a Star that you are able to follow the age limit. That makes the difference about mono and multiculturalism 🙂
Yes that was a careless statement on my part I agree. Can I ask Tony what languages are you bringing up your children in? English only, bilingual, trilingual?
As a Finn, this blog is very interesting to read. Many of the people debating here are even not Finns and still it’s very heated. It’s not interesting because of the subject. The subject (multiculturalism) is boring, because it’s a subject of ideology. Against it or for it: it’s always a bunch of ideological bullshit that me or none of my friends really pay attention to. Those that do, are basicly just morons that want to stand for something in their lives.
There’s no truth in ideology, just violence. And it has already started in Sweden, but not by the SD, but the leftists. First stabbing has happened and why? “Because we thought he was a SD party member”. There’s the taste from people of ideology, very tolerant indeed. It’s so stupid, it’s funny.
Hi Valueless, so make up your mind: is it interesting or not? As a Finn, the topic may not interest you because, as you said, is boring. It does not affect you.
What does multiculturalism mean to you?
Everything in our society has ideology and values attached to it.
Klay, I speak English with my children, my wife speak Finnish and English, depending the situation, they always reply to her in English, but when in Finland they speak a understandable Finnish.
“I did not understand a sentence of your argument”
Really? oh dear. I have to improve them, my apologies…
My point was simple, in Finland children under 16 are allowed to go to sauna, so my family goes when in there, here they are not so they don’t go. So rather than demand an exception from this rule (it’s not even a law) we decided to follow it, as any other Irish around. My wife has given up one aspect of her culture, and you know what? She’s very happy with many Irish friends. I hope I make sense now…
Now tell me, how many Finnish friends you think, in average, a Muslim has in Finland?
There is a pub in Graystones with is very pleasant indeed and we go there ever now and then…
So is the under16 age rule for all of Ireland? What explanation to do they give? I once went to a sauna in Misiones in northeast Argentina, brought a bottle of beer and the owner said: “You can’t drink alcohol in sauna because it is unhealthy.” He had warmed the sauna to a “crisp” 60C.
Why don’t you speak Portugese with your children? It is another present you will give them.
The discussion itself is interesting. People are interesting: Why do they say what they say and do what they do?
Multiculturalism is an ideology, same as monoculturalism. Both are “good” in some things, “bad” in others. For example, to you multicultarlism is good, because it gives you something you value, be it money, good concience or identity. To someone else here it’s not, because it takes from them, be it money, identity or heritage. I really don’t bother my head with general values I can’t count in numbers. My subjective values are those that are closest to me. I’ll do my best to keep them safe, happy and alive. Believe me – I do not subject those things to any ideology, voting, propaganda or discussions to keep it that way.
Your last statement really only tells me, how you perceive something that you call “our society”. To me it’s just a machine, that I pay some money to in taxes and it gives me services and some security. I have no emotional connection to it.
I think people need to differentiate their subjective and objective. Personal is not political. Mostly those that never do anything about their “personal”, say it is. The small minority that does, are the ones stabbing, punching and persecuting others and need to be handled or society becomes dysfunctional through lack of security. Dysfunctional society stops existing and nother one(s) appear to replace it
OK, Valueless, I guess I understand but I disagree that you don’t have values. Not having one is also a value, a way of life that gives you meaning.
I’ve asked some what monoculturalism so I’ll ask you what exactly it means.
Are you stating that we live in a dysfuncitonal society?
Monoculturalism is an idea of a monocultural society that only has one culture/is composed of one ethnicity/ one race (culture and race being the hardest to define, since the criterias can vary hugely and most of the time are used by ideologies, ethnicity on the other hand can contain subcultures and races, latinos for example are an ethnicity while there are black, white and brown latinos and different cultures among them.), I think it’s obvious. Like all ideals, there are none of those that aren’t still in stone age, like the people in sentinel island, since exchange of ideas is developement. Still, while it’s true no absolutely monocultural society exists, there are societies that are more monocultural than others.
Also, it’s hard to find absolutely multicultural society. When thrown together, people seem to naturally form mini societies based on who they can relate to. Canetti described it his Sociological study: Two different group (A,B) can form a new group (C), but they still always relate and remember their original groups. Forming of groups is always very intuitive, instinctual and simple, there’s always a goal and meaning. Once it’s reached, group falls apart and another groups form around new goals. According to Canetti, basic goal of any group is to dissipate, die, stop existing, meet it’s entropy.
Groups tend to be slow and stupid if you look at them from an individual’s perspective. But there the problem usually lies:
You should not view an individual through a group, or group through an individual if you want any kind of meaningful accuracy.
Contradiction seems to be rising all over Europe, the old groups that are more or less formed around ethnicities are tested and questioned. But then again, “Ability to endure contradiction is the high sign of culture.”. Any culture. There needs to be questioning and testing, it’s healthy. In the midst of it some lose and some win. Life goes on and world will still be revolving.
–Monoculturalism is an idea of a monocultural society that only has one culture/is composed of one ethnicity/ one race (culture and race being the hardest to define…
And you are stating that Finland is monocultural? Where else do these types of societies exist?
Well what you are stating through Canetti is why there is migration and why groups mix all the time; hence “monoculturalism” was never a human condition.
Sorry by the way I didn’t answer your question about dysfunctional society. The answer of course is not as simple as yes or no. But no, we don’t, since the society is relatively stable. However societies do not stagnate. Last time our society was being dysfuncional was solved by shooting our neighbours in thousands, which really awes me alot, because in Sweden there was only 5 casualties in the same type conflict and Estonians were also very uneager of killing eachother.
Let me ask you: What do you think is the cause of that difference?
No, I’m not stating Finland is monocultural. Why would I state that, for it being obviously untrue in the scale of absolute values of 0 and 1? In the same scale, finland is not multicultural either. But if I state Finland is more monocultural than fe. Russia, or Finland is less monocultural than South Pole, I’m closer to truth. Only meaningful thing is to ask why would I want to compare Finland to Russia or South Pole to you. That’s the disease of idealism.
Humans adapt to anything, so almost everything can be a human condition, the ability to adapt is one reason why we have diversity now, and will always have diversity. You’re still borderlining a naturalistic fallacy there.
People are protective and jealous about their identities. You are wondering why there are people who don’t like immigration or idea of a fully multicultural society, a mini USA if you will. I think it’s simple. When you seek to redefine a Finn, you attack their identity. Who are they, if anyone can be them? People can deal with alot of things, but not really with attacks on their identity.
Like the Mohammed pictures were attacks on muslim identity. Those who had other things to identify themselves with, did nothing, maybe frowned a little, maybe there even were muslims that laughed at it. Those who had nothing outside of their muslim identities, got outraged and violent.
I think that is a human condition and somehow easily missed in the midst of everything.
SD had a succesfull elections in Sweden. Which you think is more likely and less naive way of thinking:
That
1) 5 % of ( as I understood it, 10-11 % in regions near high immigration centers of Skåne and 8% in Malmö, which is also rich in immigrants) Swedes are pure evil from hell.
2) 5% of Swedes feel the foundations of their identities are being attacked?
I don’t know about you, but to me the 2 nd option seems more likely. And they are still expressing it by voting, at least partly, because Sweden doesen’t have strong recent traditions in violence. At 70% vote rate, 5 % of people who voted in Sweden is roughly 300 000 people. What do you think will happen if they realize voting won’t help them and they are forbidden to voice their opinion by social threats and threat of violence?
To me it seems one step towards a dysfunctional society. It’s not the immigrants fault, it’s not fault in democracy or voters, it’s the Swedish society that’s failing everybody. The politicians and the intellectuals. Of course if it’s intentional, then they are succeeding.
–In the same scale, finland is not multicultural either.
If we define multiculturalism as a society comprimising of many cultures, then yes. Finland is ALREADY multicultural because it has a community – albeit small – of immigrants and Finns who come from other cultural backgrounds. So the fallacy that “multiculturalism” is something new in Finland is a mistaken perception. Read Arto Leitzinger’s dissertation on how many immigrants lived in Finland. It hasn’t been great but the biggest amount of refugees (about 8,000) we received was in 1921 from Russia.
The identity of some Finns and what they teach at school is changing and adapting to our ever-present multicultural (demographic sense) society. The big question one should ask is why Finns have been taught to think that they are “monocultural.” The answer, as you know, lies deep in our history.
With respect to multiculturalism as a social policy in Canada, England and Australia, Finland’s laws are in the same spirit but nowhere does it mention that we are a multicultural society.
The biggest mistake that the taditional parties in Sweden made was to turn their backs on the SD and exclude them. SD benefited from this. So, I would use a more open US model where everyone can make its point. By allowing the SD to speak the voters will see them for what they are and not what other parties are trying to wash them off politically.
Parties like the SD live off boloney (sorry if I am abrupt) and all they can do is attack immigrants to reap opportunistic political points with voters. This type of agenda is for me shows a character deficiency. The SD can thank the traditional parties for their gains.
I don’t know about all the country (this is not a law) but this swimming centre we go is not the only one with this rule. It has do to with insurance, apparently not allowing kids make it cheaper.
But my point is simple, the rule, being stupid or not, is for all, and I want to be “all” not “them”, so my wife made an concession so we can fit in. I’d hate enter in the sauna with my kids and have everyone looking at us. In Ireland people is very talk active, do you imagine how many times I’d have to explain why they are there? I’d have to be saying – “well, we are different than you”. Sorry but not for my family, we are not different than anyone, so we behave like everyone.
Let me ask you, when in Argentina, what did you do? Did you insist in take the beer or respect how things were?
I remember the case about the girl wearing the head-scarf in the school in south of Finland. I know you have celebrated this case, it was a victory for your cause, also for her dad’s ego, however how about the girl? You know very well she’ll be laugh at, humiliated and just be left aside. I wonder if she’ll be getting many birthday party invitations, if any at all. Everyone is concerned about the father’s rights, how about the girl’s right? Who considered it? Maybe you see her as a multicultural hero, but does she want that honor?
I’d do anything and pay any price for my children happiness, and I believe so would you, however for that father his pride was most important than his daughter.
You said that multiculturalism is the best way to protect minorities, I disagree. It’s the best way to protect the most powerful within minorities. Multiculturalism gives some the right to take rights from others.
–But my point is simple, the rule, being stupid or not, is for all, and I want to be “all” not “them”, so my wife made an concession so we can fit in.
But don’t you think that in our society we can make a choice? If the pool has this rule that is cool. I will go to another one. End of matter.
I lived only a few years in Argentina but know it pretty well. Argentina is a more open and diverse society than it was 20-30 years ago. People drink more beer than before. It is not a question of insisting but of choice. I go to dinners and people may drink water, soda water, wine, beer etc. No big deal. Maybe it’s not making a big deal about things. If you want to drink beer, go right ahead.
–I’d have to be saying – “well, we are different than you”. Sorry but not for my family, we are not different than anyone, so we behave like everyone.
At the institution we teach we have a girl who weards a head scarf. Everybody is cool with that. It isn’t a problem. However, if I force you to be like me then we run into problems. I personally do not understand the fuss.
–You said that multiculturalism is the best way to protect minorities, I disagree.
As you have noticed, even the definition of multiculturalism is difficult. We have spoken about some pretty good definitions. For me, multiculturalism, or anything you would like to call it, even the “m” word, is ok. It is respect for other cultures and permiting cultural diversity in society. The state guarantees and promotes this. It is very normal. You and I have different tastes and lifestyles as do many other members of our society. I have a right to be whom I am.
Are you sure that you are living in Ireland at the moment?
Usually children get discounts in swimming centers:
http://www.nationalaquaticcentre.ie/NAC_TimesPrices.php
http://www.tallaghtleisure.com/pool.html
“If the pool has this rule that is cool. I will go to another one. End of matter.”
That’s exactly my point. We either find another place where all kids are allow to go to sauna or go to this one but my children stays only in the poll, but never demand exception from the rule.
“But don’t you think that in our society we can make a choice?”
Yes, anyone can, but you can’t complain about the consequences. If you want to rubber in everyone’s faces that you are different than don’t complain you are seeing differently.
Good for the girl at your place, however I do think many school girls wearing head-scarf in Finland are having a very hard time.
–Yes, anyone can, but you can’t complain about the consequences.
I can complain if it is discrimination, which is illegal by law. If we get into this area it is a different ball park, Tony. You know that too.
–Good for the girl at your place, however I do think many school girls wearing head-scarf in Finland are having a very hard time.
Who is having the hard time: the other ones who don’t wear a head scarf. The one that does does not care if the other do. Why make a problem of something that isn’t? The teachers at the Rasborg school thought it was a problem and, hence, it became one. There is no need to upset the balance of things if it does not help matters.
I can go around telling others not to wear head scarves at my school. So? What will it prove? Will it help cultural understanding in THAT PERSON WHO DICTATES’ TERMS? I really don’t understand this kind of cultural police work. It is anti-democratic and totally against my values.
Sorry this one wasn’t in the email…
“I have a right to be whom I am.”
So does the Finns have the right to like it or not…
So does the Finns have the right to like it or not…
-And you are not the only Finn 🙂
“Who is having the hard time: the other ones who don’t wear a head scarf.”
You think so? As far as I know Finnish kids have plenty friends to play with, from school, neighbors, relatives, etc… Can you say the same from Muslims kids? I’m quite sure Finnish kids won’t loose too much sleep if a Muslim child is left alone during school break.
“Why make a problem of something that isn’t?”
That’s exactly my point, there is no need to. Our kids can have a good childhood or be laugh at, it’s all our choice. Every child deserves a happy childhood, unfortunately some parents think their pride is more important that their children. Too bad…
“I really don’t understand this kind of cultural police work.”
What I understand is that my children are invited to every birth party from their school friends and have about 2 play-dates per week. Just today Lisa will be collected from school by Tara’s mom and will be at her house until 4. That’s the only think that matters to me…
“I can complain if it is discrimination, which is illegal by law.”
There is now law saying a Muslim child must be accepted by other children, allowed into their games or invited to go play at their houses…
— There is now law saying a Muslim child must be accepted by other children, allowed into their games or invited to go play at their houses…
Could you show me this law?
I don’t know about you Tony, but when I was a kid I didn’t even realize that the other kid was from another country.
Have you ever invited a Muslim kid to one of your child’s birthday party?
“Could you show me this law?”
Apologies, there is no law…