Roughly half of the 39 Perussuomalaiset (PS) MPs have signed a draft law that would in effect deny Finland’s ever-growing cultural diversity in the youth law. If PS MP Olli Immonen had his way together with twenty other PS MPs, Finland would go into denial mode and conveniently brush its immigrants and visible minorities under the rug.
Social Democratic Party youth wing chairman, Joona Räsänen, criticized Immonen’s draft law. He said that the PS doesn’t want Finland’s youth to think that multiculturalism and diversity in our society are good matters. Read full story (in Finnish) here.
It’s not first that Immonen, who is chairman of the far right Suomen Sisu association, has drafted anti-immigration laws.
PS MP Immonen claims on his Facebook wall that in the present youth law multiculturalism is considered a good matter. “In my opinion, it shouldn’t be the law that should determine whether multiculturalism is a good matter or not. Let everyone determine it for themselves.”
With MPs like these and many others, it’s not difficult to spot the red herrings in their arguments. In simple English, Immonen is saying that Finland should not become culturally diverse and that we should do everything possible to prevent people who are different from us from moving to this country.
How many more of these laws, which have no chance in passing in parliament, will have to be drafted before we understand that Finland’s third largest party in parliament is not only racist but would destroy this country?
Twenty-one PS MPs have signed the draft bill. Some of these are Jussi Halla-aho, Jussi Niinistö, Juho Eerola, James Hirvisaari, Vesa-Matti Saarakkala, Ritva Elomaa, Reijo Tossavainan, Teuvo Hakkarainen and others.
“How many more of these laws, which have no chance in passing in parliament, will have to be drafted before we understand that Finland’s third largest party in parliament is not only racist but would destroy this country?”
From their point of view, you are destroying this country! You and your cronies just want to destroy Finland as it is to build your multicultural pipedream. You want to push finnish language and culture and people to the corner in its own country. You take in no consideration that Finland is the only country for us finns and if the finnish language and culture isnt dominant here, it has a high risk of dying away as we are minor language with only 5 million people.
Yossie
hahahhaha – you paranoid nitwit! So what corner of Finland would that be? Do you have any preference? And how will this herding be done? Trains to Kuusimo? Shall we build a fence to keep you all in, all five million of you?
Then we can invite the whole of Africa to come and live off the wonderful society that Finns have built up in Finland. Yeah, long live the revolution.
Yep, that’s what we want to do!
Even I’m not a big fan of multiculturalism in government level (I do support it only in individual level) your message sounds quite paranoid. If Finnish culture survived under Swedish and Russian rule, I do not think having a few more foreigners will destroy it. And as you know, cultures tend to change over the time.
Yes cultures change, but they have changed on finns terms before, we adapt what we want. Now when we take people from shitty cultures and they start to tell us we cant do this and that because it’s against their religion or culture!
Finnish culture survived russian and swedish times because when there was tries to russificate finns, those attempts were resisted. Nowdays resistance to that is called racism. That is the whole point of this topic, they want the multiculturalism be enforced.
We can already see this when people can’t sing the traditional songs at the end of the school year celebrations in some schools as there is immigrants in there. Tolerance only seem to go one way in this multicultural pipedream.
Yossie
Rubbish. Are you really that naive? Finns have constantly ARGUED about what changes are the right changes. Political and social change has always been contested, even in a ‘consensus’ country like Finland. So the notion of a ‘we’ or ‘our’ terms is a complete red herring. There will always be Finns who are unhappy with the direction of society.
That’s just your ignorant brain failing to make use of the much vaunted Finnish education, which should tell you that there are no ‘shitty’ cultures, as ‘culture’ as a broad category is typically quite meaningless. Likewise, Finnish society has always had citizens who have argued that society’s values should reflect their religious beliefs, or are you simply saying that just because it’s not ‘our’ religion, then it must be all bad and ours all good?
An example? Or are you simply assuming they are doing this because that justifies you hatred of these people ‘telling you what to do’?
The issue of religious freedom is that people can follow their religious practices as long as they don’t unduly harm other people (or themselves). That leaves an awful lot of scope for religious expression and the normal compromises that come with satisfying people of different needs and wants.
And did it survive the trip from the Urals? The idea of ‘Finnish culture’ is itself a manifestation of nationalism, a rather modern concept by any standards. The ‘old’ anthropologically based standard tells us that ‘Finnish culture’ is a Smörgåsbord of Uralic, Norse, Goth, Comb Ceramic, Corded Ware, Swiderian and Kunda cultures. Indeed, even in modern terms, both Russian and Swedish ‘cultures’ have influenced cultural habits in Finland.
But you use the word ‘survive’, and that shows that you think about culture in almost military terms. Typical fascist.
Talking about kids being balanced and well-educated with a respect for diverse cultural identities is not ‘enforcing multiculturalism’. Again, you confuse or introduce a military style vocabulary (enforcement) into a discussion about cultural appreciation and moral tolerance of differnce. Advancing Finland’s social values of tolerance is not a process of ‘enforcement’, not by any stretch.
Again you try to turn a normal situation into a war-like situation. Are you a war mongerer?
Resistence? Again, you talk in terms of war. And no, it’s not racism to celebrate and work to preserve your own culture, but when you work to undermine the social standing of people whose origins are in other cultures, then yes, that is very clearly racism.
And what song was that? And is this song a form of nationalism? What is the justification for introducing such overtly political customs into a school setting? Just calling it ‘Finnish culture’ and then demanding that it must therefore be okay is as bad as people saying that honour killings must be tolerated because it is ‘our culture’.
Well, lets take it the other way then – lets have lots of different nationalist and religious songs in schools that reflects each of the different demographics and cultural roots of the students? Are you in favour of that? I doubt it. So what kind of ‘tolerance’ would you accept?
Enrique – the ‘draft law’ link doesn’t seem to be working anymore. I looked at it yesterday and I’d like to write an additional post specifically to tackle it, but now it’s disappeared.
You can find the private member’s bill here.
The expression “valtioksi määritelty alue” in the opening paragraph looks like a typical category error from a fifth form civics essay.
It’s interesting that only PS parliamentarians signed this bill and that only half of them did so.
The Speaker’s Council recommended sending the bill to the Committee for Education and Culture. You can find the abbreviated submission debate here.
I do still think the culture is changing on Finns terms, depending on what you consider part of Finnish culture. We take influence from other cultures what we think is most suitable for us. Some people like different kind of cultural aspects than the others.
Different cultures are, well, different and you have every right not to like them, but I wouldn’t call them “shitty”. Many Finnish cultural features are quite “shitty”, if you look them closely… I do think getting wasted during the work week is not acceptable, but I still tolerate it.
Ok, in this one I can sort of agree with you. I do not think people should treated differently just because of their cultural background or religion. For example, Muslim women having their own swimming turn was a real hit for equality. However, people who are living in Finland have right to express their feelings and opinions, if something doesn’t satisfy them. Of course, it doesn’t mean that everybody should bend over because of this.
One of the problems is HOW these topics are discussed. I do think, for example, Hakkarainen is an old fashion, racist idiot. He doesn’t know how to talk about the immigration or people who are presenting different cultures. I do not think multiculturalism should particularly endorsed, but people should be taught that people are different and shouldn’t be treated differently just because they are different. But yes, “racism”- term is used way too often if you don’t agree with some of the views of minority.
This is agree as well. I’m an atheist and I never as a kid saw anything very religious about “Suvivirsi”. Yes, it mentions “God” and even “Jesus”, but it is just a tradition which should not be forgotten. It is just a song which ends the school year for many kids. People shouldn’t be so damn sensitive all the time.
“Different cultures are, well, different and you have every right not to like them, but I wouldn’t call them “shitty”. Many Finnish cultural features are quite “shitty”, if you look them closely… I do think getting wasted during the work week is not acceptable, but I still tolerate it”
Opinions on cultures are always subjective ofcourse. There is no way to mesure them objectively because you always look at them from your own point of view and values. I, ofcourse, am just stating opinions from my point of view.
“We can already see this when people can’t sing the traditional songs at the end of the school year celebrations in some schools as there is immigrants in there. Tolerance only seem to go one way in this multicultural pipedream”
I think I should expand this a bit more. Its not necesserily immigrants fault but the whole multicultural agenda that makes finnish principals decide on immigrants behalf that “oh, we cant do this anymore”. That is the true danger of this enforced multiculturalism that they want to enforce in youth organizations. It praises other cultures and sees finnish ways inferior that can and should be replaced. Danger comes when finns dont appriciate their own culture anymore!
Yossie
There are many threads and drivers of change in Finnish culture today, Yossie. Some are especially inward, some are drawn from a Nordic context and some from a European context. In the vast flow of ideas that are channeled through today’s media, we are also subject to ‘global’ trends and influences.
In terms of inward drivers, there are Finns who question ‘the old ways’, among them the close connections between state and church. It might be that by having more religious identities within the classroom makes these religious practices more obvious, and more obviously serving only one group of Finns, ignoring for example non-believers. In previous discussions here on Migrant Tales, some Finns have complained about being ‘forced’ to take part in such obvious religious rituals as part of the state institutionalised educational program. These Finns are by far the strongest driver pushing these changes, not immigrants or multiculturalism. In other words, this is a very poor example of a negative feature of ‘multiculturalism’.
I ask you Yossie why Finns would not appreciate their own culture? And again, which bit of the culture do you refer to? As a blanket word, it’s pretty meaningfless – an excuse for easy political soundbites that play on ‘populist’ sentiments or prejudices, but which actually don’t tell us anything of real value. I may as well write ‘people should appreciate truth!’
But maybe this anxiety of yours is part of the dissonance of growing up in a ‘post-post modern’ world. The anxiety of too much choice, and the fear that historical choices are no longer the obvious choice. The fears of relativism, that everything be seen to be the same value, regardless of real consequences. Yet these notions are the effects of confusion, not an understanding of the real nature of today’s world or the modern concept of ‘freedom’.
For example, is the best way to preserve Finnish culture to specifically attack ‘foreign’ culture? No. This has been done some many times before and has always failed miserably. In my kids recent kevätjuhlat, the kids did a ‘Gangnam’ style dance and song. Is that to be banned for being ‘foreign’? How would the kids feel about it? And all the use of Swedish and English words mingled into everyday Finnish conversations among various folks speech, is this to be ‘regulated’, by denying these words exist in normal usage? This isn’t preserving history, this is turning a blind eye to today’s living history.
The real outcome of these debates is typically not a better understanding of culture or of the challenges of living in today’s mass media world, but rather a greater sense of threat and ‘them vs. us’, both of which are totally unnecessary (in fact, it’s borderline depression) and totally counterproductive in terms of getting to the heart of what modern society should seek to promote by way of culture or cultures. There needs to be realism and idealism in this debate. It cannot be just grumpy old men moaning about ‘the youth of today’, while conveniently forgetting the freedom and exploration of their own generation’s youth. Likewise, it cannot be just rebellious young men kicking back at anything that would explain their own sense of personal alienation or feelings of dissonance in today’s modern society.
Joonas,
But yes, “racism”- term is used way too often if you don’t agree with some of the views of minority.
But yes yes and very yes yes
For ME as a foreigner…when i use racist word … yes that was and is exactly what i meant… because it is me who can feel it when it happens to me not to you and others.
Like what i told in my blogs…am standing for all i told.
And still i can to use it racist word even i know some have allergy with this word… an allergy on their immune system ( if they have a such a thing ) but why? If we r not racist why its hard for us?
I know some people abuse this word but then its very clear… like if u do not sit close or so close to them, if u don’t talk to them, if u don’t accept their friendship etc etc … simple cheap examples…we all know these things…
But there is racist and no/one can tell WE r perfect… that’s fanatical like religion, that’s fanatical like roles.
Finally my idea… there is a very fat racist in Finland u believe it or not it cant change the fact…
U as a Finnish person cant see what i am able to see because those racists are not brave to show their real face to u but they feel free and show it to me very perfectly if u want see this racist u should come to Finland with a foreigner dress… i mean come to Finland like u r a foreigner.
This racist matter can happens to u every single day…
And attention i don’t say foreigners are perfect and not racist …yes between us … there r racists too.
We are all adults… we know very well who is our friend and who is not… at work and everywhere so me.
I think we have discussed about this several times, I do not believe there is nothing to add to the subject and we have agreed to disagree on our views of what happened to you. I’m fine with that.
Well, I do not think people like to be accused on the things they are not. I would not like to be accused on being a drunk Finn, because I do not even drink. I would say same thing goes to any honest Somali people who might be accused for horrible things.
It depends in which situation people do not wish to sit/talk to you, but if a stranger start to talks to me on a bus and he seems little bit shady, I do not wish to sit/chat with that person. I do meet all kinds of people in different projects and some of them have “earned” my friendship while others are just co-workers I only talk about work related things. Some people I even dislike, but I still manage to work with them.
I have been a “foreigner” a few times and have experiences hatred of the locals. It has not discouraged me, because I have mostly good experiences from the majority. Racism lives in every country that exists, some of them just hides it better than the others. There is racism in Finland and I don’t think nobody can deny it, but I do not think it is everywhere you might think there is.
Yossie
Yes cultures change, but they have changed on finns terms before, we adapt what we want. Now when we take people from shitty cultures and they start to tell us we cant do this and that because it’s against their religion or culture!
You don’t need to accept things that u don’t like it, so why u afraid?
Shitty cultures??? And what about good cultures? Would u accept good cultures or morals?
Drinking beer and screaming( Beer party )its a famous culture in Finland… so whats Ur idea about this kind of culture?
Now i start to tell u ( You is an example Jossie now don’t attack to me and if so i am not afraid )don’t kill your health with beer, put your time on sport and a healthy life, your life is worthy be careful…
Would you accept a good thing in your culture and can u delete and cancel a bad thing in Ur culture?
Hello Dana
“You don’t need to accept things that u don’t like it, so why u afraid?”
I´m afraid that when immigrants dont accept things I like, they go away because some people want to be “tolerant”.
“And what about good cultures? Would u accept good cultures or morals?”
I suppose I would be willing to accept “good cultures”, the problem is that goodness is very subjective. What is a good culture depens on who you ask.
“Drinking beer and screaming( Beer party )its a famous culture in Finland… so whats Ur idea about this kind of culture?”
I can very much imagine some people seeing this as “shitty culture”. Then again good many people enjoy it and see it as a fun way to spend time together.
“Now i start to tell u ( You is an example Jossie now don’t attack to me and if so i am not afraid )don’t kill your health with beer, put your time on sport and a healthy life, your life is worthy be careful…”
I think there can be a middle ground to this that you can drink beer without killing your health. Also I dont think they are exlusive either. You can do sports and drink beer (though it might be best not to do it at the same time).
Joonas,
I think we have discussed about this several times, I do not believe there is nothing to add to the subject and we have agreed to disagree on our views of what happened to you. I’m fine with that.
…
Not we… that was you not me
And I am not searching your agreement… fact does not
need agreement.
…
Well, I do not think people like to be accused on the things they are not. I would not like to be accused on being a drunk Finn, because I do not even drink. I would say same thing goes to any honest Somali people who might be accused for horrible things..
Joonas
You are not a lawyer for people are you? People who are not racist don’t need your support and who are racist your support cant help them but as u like… you can waste your time more and more.
Who told you are a drunk? What i told to Jossie is about drunks and alcohol problems in Finland… you do not believe this big problem in Finland?
…
About
third comment…okay so you have this ability to be agree with something positive… huuum after a million years
…
I have been a “foreigner” a few times and have experiences hatred of the locals. It has not discouraged me, because I have mostly good experiences from the majority. Racism lives in every country that exists, some of them just hides it better than the others. There is racism in Finland and I don’t think nobody can deny it, but I do not think it is everywhere you might think there is.
Attention… you go and back to your country… you never live with them, u don’t need live with them under pressure, you do your business and thats just a small trip for you… but what am talking about is
A real life with racist, sure you cant understated my experiences and sure we have different kind of experiences but why you don’t attention Joonas???For example No/one can attack you with racist manner at work Can they? you are a Finn and also its very very difficult for you to see a racist Finn around yours… first u have a fanatic way about this word and people secondly the pain i feel inside me from them is not a pain for you its a miss-understanding word for you… if you don’t feel my pain then u cant understand my word.
– Let’s see. You have told your side of the story and I have told my opinion about it. You disagree with me and I disagree with you, so politely saying “we have agreed to disagree on our views”. I do not believe there is any point to continue discussion about it, because neither of us can contribute anything new to the subject.
– No, I’m not a lawyer. I just stated that (most) people do not like to be accused for the things they are not. Of course, if the person is a racist, he probably wouldn’t like to admit it either.
If you read my sentence carefully, I did not say anyone (or you) said I was a drunk. It is a stereotype of Finnish people that they drink a lot (unfortunately this is also true) and I told you an example that I would not like if somebody would be referred me as one.
– So, even I have told you many times that I have LIVED in those countries, you still think they are some sort of business/holiday trips? If I stay a year in one country, live in suburbs and interact with the locals daily bases, you still say I can’t understand how is it being a foreigner in a new country? It is true that I have never lived several years in one country, I was not forced to leave my country like you were, I arranged everything before my trips and in most of the cases I knew I would come back to Finland some day. However, that was many years ago.
– I have also told you in several occasional that I have faced racism in my host countries. But I can understand that your experience might be different than mine and our reactions to these incidents might be different.
– True, nobody has ever attacked me in racist manners at the office. If I remember right, nobody has “attacked” you either: They have not talked with you and have not invited you to have a coffee with them. If you consider that as an “attack”, then I have faced it as well… even in Finland by my country men 😛
Joonas
In truth, I would say that a ‘year’ living in a foreign country is not enough to appreciate what immigration really feels like. I would say there is at least a two-year period of novelty that helps a great deal in remaining ‘securely’ located as a foreigner in the host culture. It’s hard to describe how this slips away, but it does. When things are new, we orientate to them differently, we gear ourselves to learning, we perhaps rely less on ordinary expectations about human interactions, and we inevitably accept our very reduced functionality in social situations. In many ways, foreigners are less ‘present’ in social situations than small children. When one is ‘present’, the conversation can revolve exclusively around one’s role as a foreigner, and the sense of just being an ordinary human being is lost. You can tolerate this for a couple of years, but after a while, you start to genuinely miss the ability to be ‘ordinary’, and to gain the benefits of ‘ordinary’ interaction with other people.
A year? Joonas, it’s nowhere near long enough. And as for the other things that Dana said about that, I think she’s right. It’s a different thing if you are there for business or education, where you have a job lined up, or where there is a company/educational support network in place. It’s not the same as being a refugee or a long-term immigrant.
In many ways, your experience can be seen as a ‘false friend’ in terms of understanding the experiences of immigrants. It appears the same thing on the surface, but underneath, there is a totally different meaning.
@Mark, I think I quite clearly stated that my situation was different than Dana’s current situation. And yes, year is a short time and in that time I don’t need to make so much integration to the country – in that time you can only scratch a surface.
When she said “you never live with them, u don’t need live with them under pressure, you do your business and thats just a small trip for you” made it sound like I was a holiday there and living in five star hotels with other westerns. Living abroad is always difficult and you can see/experience the negative sides of the country in less than one year. Of course, Dana has lived much longer in Finland than I have in any foreign country and she is more experienced in that sense, but I do not think it entitles her to minimize my experiences.
Joonas
Sorry mate, but I stand by my point that this is a false friend you are using here. When you say ‘negative sides of a country’, you are referring to other people’s behaviour, but you are not dealing at all with the unique personal challenges of being a refugee/immigrant.
The difficulties faced by immigrants in Finland are a collision of two significant stressors – one is the situation of being a refugee/immigrant, outside your home culture and cut off from the normal type of relationships. You can gain friendships, but everything is harder, much harder. The novelty of living in a foreign country wears off after the first couple of years, and then you really start to miss the normal stuff of life, the cultural reference points, the easy and normal ways of just getting to know people, having the possibility to fully express yourself and also share in someone else’s freedom of expression too. There is no replacement for that. It’s a massive hole in your psyche!!!!
And then there is the other side of that collision, the people who not only haven’t a fucking clue just how hard it is to be an immigrant, but who want to run you down, bad mouth you, talk about you like you are economic cattle, or just plain insult you left right and center. Add to that the racism, the hostility, the ignorance, the stigmatisation and the plain simple awkwardness around foreigners, and your already difficult situation can often seem impossible.
The amazing thing is how people push on anyway. You have to make the best of things, and it’s hard to be miserable all the time, even if it is difficult and lonely. So you try your best, and it is possible to hold onto the most important things. But on the bad days, you realise that you gave up a hell of a lot to live in another country….a HELL OF A LOT! And on top of that, some people want to do a number on you before they’ve even said a word to you!
Hello Yossie,
…
I´m afraid that when immigrants dont accept things I like, they go away because some people want to be “tolerant”.
…
If i don’t accept things you like it is not a problem for me, not a problem for u… so let me go, don’t be worry, u have free will and i understand, you should not care about me in this case… we r strangers.
Tolerant is a different matter, its like
if we r in same place … same office i must tolerant you even i don’t like things you do, even i don’t like your face… or T.shirt and else
Joonas,
– True, nobody has ever attacked me in racist manners at the office. If I remember right, nobody has “attacked” you either: They have not talked with you and have not invited you to have a coffee with them. If you consider that as an “attack”, then I have faced it as well… even in Finland by my country men
….
Hey whats attack mean to u?
U need blood on my body? Or my heart should somehow show tears for you?( even in this case you will tell oh just be strong 000h its nothing at all… huh its not about being strong am very very veryyyy strong but its about i see this things all the time and am asking me why so? Asking me millions questions a day… i don’t like it because i am a friend that’s my reason.
People can attack you with even a word, do you know that?
Cant you feel anything if people put you down? They can put you down even without a word you dont know that or really am a very strange human???
If they take a distance with you? ( its an attack too )
You yourself tell that u had racist experience in other countries so u felt pain and now how can u tell me this things are okay and normal? and Finally you are at home u have all people u want around you, they are your comfort but what about me? am alone here and have no family with me… Even could not see my mama funeral and that’s happened after a long long time separate.
So there is no/one to hug me after every hard thing happens to me here, but you have Joonas.