By Enrique Tessieri
Remember Black February? Over about three weeks we read about the deaths of three Muslims , a suicide and a Perussuomalaiset (PS) councilman who offered to give a medal to a white Finn for killing one of these victims in cold blood. On Monday Migrant Tales had the opportunity to meet the father and a family friend of one of the victims, Abdisalam Mohamed Abdulah.
The first thing that you notice when you meet Abdisalam’s father is his grief. Anguish inhabits all of Mursal Abdulah: It’s in his eyes, in his face, in his posture, in his voice, in his persona.
The death of his eighteen-year-old son was such a strong blow that he is still recovering from the shock when two policemen broke the tragic news to him and his wife on a Friday February 17 at 10am.
“I couldn’t believe what I was hearing,” he said returning to that terrible moment of his life. “My wife fainted.”
Abdisalam’s father and wife were in the first group of Somali refugees that came to Finland in August 1990 by train from the former Soviet Union. Their son was born in Finland. Abdisalam was a good athlete, student and son, according to his father.
“He [Abdisalam] planned to study medicine,” he continued. “I was ready to send him abroad so he could become a doctor.”
Abdisalam Mohamed Abdulahi was a Manchester United fan. In August he would have turned nineteen.
The last time that Abdisalam’s father saw his son was on Thursday night. “His last words were that he was going to take a shower, go to a [high school] party and return,” he said. “He never did.”
Abdulah isn’t at all happy with how the police have handled the case. Apart from not expressing any empathy for the parents’ grief, it was difficult to get any information from them about the crime.
“We were treated coldly and felt like we were the criminals,” he said. “The police appeared to be more concerned about keeping the case under wraps because they feared a revenge attack by Somalis.”
Abdulah says that if a crime were committed by a Somali it would have received a lot of media attention.
“The thing that struck us the most was when we went to the police station,” he said. “The same information that they wouldn’t give us, we then read in the tabloids right after we left the police station. How is it possible that the papers knew more about Abdisalam’s death than us?”
Abdisalam’s death happened between midnight and 7am. The suspect and the victim were school acquaintances. Abdulahi says that his son died from a mortal blow to the head. The suspect’s father was present at the crime scene as well.
I asked Abdulahi if he feels that justice will be done? “I don’t know,” he said trying to be diplomatic. “I’m not sure that I trust the police.”
One of the matters that the father has a big question mark is the complicity of the father in the whole affair. He doesn’t believe the police that the father was not an accomplice in the crime. “Abdisalam was big and physical compared with the attacker,” Abdulah said. “There must have been somebody else helping him [that could have been the father].”
A friend of the family present at the interview speaks.
“The worst thing in Finland is that if you have a different religion, culture and language, you are left on the fringes of society,” he said. “No matter how much you try to integrate you are always left outside.”
Abdulah concludes: “Those Somalis that went to Australia and Canada are living better lives than I in Finland. All I have to show for over twenty years in Finland is a cold country with long winters and the death of my son.”
Migrant Tales expresses to the parents, relatives and friends its condolences for Abdisalam.
Sigh sigh
Hi MT and all,
Thanks MT for ur report and blog.
I never trust court, law and police in Finland, i knew that already from my own experience in here.
To his parents,
I am so sorry to hear of your loss, hugs
I wish comfort and peace for Abdisalam Mohamed Abdulahi,s parents and family, i know its very very hard, i just sending them hugs, they r my family too, we r one big family here.
Peace to Finland and the world
Hmmh. It is appalling that the family of Abdisalam is still going through such difficulties and police are dragging their feet to display the case. I can’t say more about this but i am offering my condolences to the family and friends of the victim.
Hei MT
I would like some more info here. Where did you get the information about the murder? Just curious. Where was it first reported? Who killed this young man and why? I really can not seem to find too much info in the press on this young man’s death. If this is a real racist murder, then how come it has gone by almost unnoticed, no outcry, no outrage? I mean in Belgium, when there is a racist murder, the streets are on fire …
Hi Risto, we are not suggesting hate crime anywhere. This story only is an interview of the father and a close friend of the victim.
Oh, alright then. Well, a sad story. A pity to see that the police can be so non-empathic in such cases.
Yes, true, Risto. Here is where a drop of cultural sensitivity would have worked wonders. Even if the policeman thinks he did his job professionally the persons in question have a different opinion. This is what counts at the end of the day. True, it is a very sad story.
Hello MT
Thank you for bringing this sad story to the public, i was expecting that this case was solved through a court.But if the murder’s father was at the scene, isn’t likely that he was involved the killing?
–But if the murder’s father was at the scene, isn’t likely that he was involved the killing?
Yes, that is what they suspect and they don’t think. They are not convinced by the police’s version of things.
Ok it is painful but i think it is more painful when justice is against you.
This gets me mad , chills and sadness through me, it’s true no matter how you try to integrate in to Finland you will always be left outside, in my case i tried and still up to this day trying but could not and cant, because i feel like integrating is not in my hand, i don’t kno how long will i keep on trying to integrate in to this society wich does not want us, i feel like it’s no use, over 23years ive been trying without no results, something must be seriously wrong. It’s true that people abroad , Uk, Canada, Usa and even Netherlands wich ive been there, people like us are doing quite well, when it comes socially and in job life. This is the first time im considering to move from Finland.
My condolence to the family, every life is precious, no life is superior than the other, nobodies life deserve to be taken, every life deserves to live and lead happy and secure life.
D4R Ei nyt varmaan kannata paeta vaan rakentaa omaa Suomea. Värillisten Suomi. Syy miksi muissa maissa menee jossakin mielessä paremmin on, että he ovat rakentaneet oman yhteisön joka on omavarainen ja kykenevä puolustautumaan rasistista yhteiskuntaa vastaan. Malcolm X olisi ylpeä Euroopan värillisten saavutuksesta rakentaa oma yhteisö.
Itse tapaus on kyllä kiintoisa. Onko tässä Suomen Stephen Lawrence.
http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CNMFELcCMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3TqTFBP8reQ&ei=uUqpT7_UD8Hf4QTq8J3ACQ&usg=AFQjCNELq0MVdcPeIWC856pwxJ6D4fHVCQ
Meneekö muualla todella nyt paremmin kysyn vaan. Rasismi on mädättänyt koko Euroopan ja turva satamat alkavat kadota.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TqTFBP8reQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSqjKr_XMUA&feature=relmfu
Sasu
This sad story and the case you presented here is pretty different, we are talking about the racism and brutality in our community here in Finland but not UK or any other country. Because we want to find a solution to our daily problems whether we are minority groups or Finns, togther. That is what needs to talk about. you came to the blog and started reacting D&R comments and you said nothing about this tragedy.
Akaaro, does anyone have any news about the Somali lady that was attacked at the Myllypuro metro station?
Akaaro ÖÖ En minänyt väittänytkään, että nämä liittyisivät yhteen. On silti totuus että rasismilla on tapana olla aika samanlainen paikasta toiseen.
Kyllä minä reaktioin sen mukaan, miten tähän nyt voi reaktioida, kun ei nyt hirveesti mitään tietoa asiasta ole tullut.
Akaaro haluat ratkaisuja. Voisitko ehdottaa jotakin. Meillä totta vie uupuu ratkaisuja näihin ongelmiin.
Did anyone notice that majority of Finns become so selfish, that, they don’t mind taking from the world and enjoying it, for instance different kind of food, cultures and music, even coffee beans wich they seem to consume alot, and i don’t recall coffee growing in Finland, traveling to every corner of the world, even Africa,.. i know many many Finns who go to Africa for vacation, even now i know some Finns who’re on vacation in africa, but when it comes to giving back, Finns are not interested, they’re making a big noise of the little poor immigrants who’re in here, especially the colored ones. Why is that Finns? why do you like to travel to every corner of the world, enjoy other peopels cultures and foods, but when it comes to different kind of people going to your country, you imedietly resist?
D4R Se on sitä eksotiikkaa johon olen hyvin kyllästynyt. Eksotiikka lähetymis tapa sanoo että värillisten kulttuurit ovat epänormaaleja ja valkoisen miehen kulttuuri on normaalia. Koska me olemme epänormaaleja, meidän kulttuurit asetetaan pöydälle jotta valkoiset voisivat tutkia
sitä. Sen jälkeen heitetään se roskakoriin ja otetaan esiin seuraavalle eksotiikka matkalle tai eksotiikka sirkusseen.
http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/blogit/megafoni/kulttuurien-tasa-arvoa-opetukseen
Kirjoittelin hieman siitä lähestymis tavasta.
Sasu: Meneekö muualla todella nyt paremmin kysyn vaan. Rasismi on mädättänyt koko Euroopan ja turva satamat alkavat kadota.
Joo mutta, muissa maissa kuten briteissä ja myös osa Euroopan maissa näyttää siltä että rasismi ei hyväksytä, mutta järkyttävältä ja huolestuttavalta näyttää tää Suomen tilanne, ennen vain Skinit olivat rasisteja, nyt tavalliset Suomalaiset varoittelevat lapsiaan “vaarallisista maahanmuuttajista”, on poliitiikkoja, professoreita kuten Timo Vahavainen jotka rasismillaan kiihottavat kansaa maahanmuuttajia vastaan, täällä Suomessa näyttää siltä että rasismi on tullut hyväksytympi, ennen sitä hävettiin nyt sitä kehuskellaan ja ollaan ylpeitä. Nämä esimerkit muista maista ei pidä vertailla Suomea ja pidä siten väheksyä Suomen ottama linjaa jyrkkää maahanmuuttoa vastaan, varsinkin tummaihoiset ja muslimit.
Suomi ei todellakaan ole monikulttuurinen maa vaan monokulttuuri. Suomi tällä hetkellä ei hyväksy monikulttuuria vaikka on Suomessa kansainvlisiä Suomalaisia,mutta silti ollaan sita monikulttuuri idea vastaan. Suomi vaan on tyytyväinen monokulttuurina maana.
D4R, here is one of the most powerful quotes of the Abdisalam story that is not related but is to his death: “The worst thing in Finland is that if you have a different religion, culture and language, you are left on the fringes of society,” he said. “No matter how much you try to integrate you are always left outside.”
Hyym niin näyttää tapahtuneen. Vaarallinen “maahanmuuttaja” on kiintoisa lausahdus koska maahanmuuttajat ovat iso joukko ihmisiä joilla ei ole mitään yhteistä. Puolet maahanmuuttajista tulee Euroopasta ja silti me puhumme maahanmuuttaja ongelmasta. Menee välillä sekaisin siitä mistä me nyt puhutaan.
Minä en ole innostunut ajatuksesta että skinhead ryhmät ovat rasismi ongelman ydin. Äärirasistit ovat vain pieni osa systeemiä joka toimii aivan hyvin ilman heitäkin. Itse pohtisin miten me muutamme yhteiskunnan oikeasti monikulttuurisesti jos se on mahdollista. Kaikkia keinoja on pohdittava.
Sasu
The matter lies on our hands, there are no ready-made solutions. Finn system needs to be improved, whether it is police, judiciary, integration and other related systems. It is a static. We always try to assimilate but you don’t accept us. You can lead a horse into water but you can’t make him drink. and you blame us that we are not integrating to the society and really that isnot our fault but yours.
When it comes to the matter of immigrants especially Somalis the ruling part is more harmful to us rather then PS part. Because PS is uncovering the reality exist here , it says, watchout we are going to kill you and government says kill them-it only affects you the election time.
Akaaro Hyym ihan hyvä. On totta että ei ole valmiita vastauksia ja siksi välillä kysynkin muiden ratkaisu ehdotuksia. Olen täysin samaa mieltä Perussuomalaisista.
Itse ajattelen, että suomalainen yhteiskunta pitäisi uudelleen rakentaa, jotta voisimme heittää rasistiset tiilet pois koska rasismi on rakennettu tänne niin, kuin usein olen sanonutkin.
“We always try to assimilate..” Akaara.
Mitä järkeä on sulautua tänne. Minusta värillisten on pidettävä kiini omasta kulttuurista ja uskosta. Usko ja Kulttuuri ovat vahvimpia kilpiä rasismia vastaan.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Traumatic-Slave-Syndrome-Degruy-Leary/dp/0963401122/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1
Suosittelen sinua lukemaan tämä kirja koska siinä käydään läpi miten rasismi tuhoaa kohteensa ihmisyyden ja miten sitä vastaan voi taistella. Kannattaa muistaa silti konteksti.
–M.T: D4R, here is one of the most powerful quotes of the Abdisalam story that is not related but is to his death: “The worst thing in Finland is that if you have a different religion, culture and language, you are left on the fringes of society,” he said. “No matter how much you try to integrate you are always left outside.”
It’s true that we’re the ones to be blamed of not integrating, but truth is we want and we try, but it’s not in our hands, it’s just an excuse when it’s said that immigrants don’t want to integrate, Finland is really confused right now about immigrants, when it comes to immigrants Finland has no direction, im waiting enthusiasticly where this will lead to.
–M.T: D4R, here is one of the most powerful quotes of the Abdisalam story that is not related but is to his death: “The worst thing in Finland is that if you have a different religion, culture and language, you are left on the fringes of society,” said a friend of Adbdisalam Mohamed Abdulahi. “No matter how much you try to integrate you are always left outside.”
I totally agree. It’s another urban tales in the same category as “they just want to live off welfare.” But it shows how things work in practice: We don’t want you to integrate so we’ll blame you for not integrating. We’ll make everyting near-impossible for you so you won’t integrate too much because that would put our jobs and resources controlled by my group at risk.
It’s true that we’re the ones to be blamed of not integrating, but truth is we want and we try, but it’s not in our hands, it’s just an excuse when it’s said that immigrants don’t want to integrate, Finland is really confused right now about immigrants, when it comes to immigrants Finland has no direction, im waiting enthusiasticly where this will lead to.
D4R
Are you serious?
What do you mean by “giving back”? When Finn goes to Africa, he brings money to Africa. He pays for it. So how does that compare to an African who comes to Finland and expects Finns to pay for his living? Do you really believe that Finn goes to Africa and just enjoys the food for free? Give me a break, you can’t be serious.
D4R
Jos Suomi on tyytyväinen monokulttuurisena maana, niin miksi sitä pitäisi muuttaa? Jos suomalaiset ovat Suomessa tyytyväisiä tilanteeseen, niin miksi ihmeessä suomalaisten pitäisi sitä muuttaa? Kyllä se on tällöin muualta tulevan velvollisuus sopeutua siihen, millainen Suomi on.
Migrant Tales
Interesting. Then could you please explain why you tagged “racism” in this post?
–Interesting. Then could you please explain why you tagged “racism” in this post?
Because if we look at the history of the Somali community it would be pretty naive to conclude that racism isn’t an issue. The father and his friend spoke about exclusion and how difficult it was to integrate into Finnish society.
What would you have used as tags?
D4R
Integration is truly a two-way street. If us natives don’t make an effort too then all your efforts towards integration mean nothing.
I have Somali friends in The Netherlands who are all successful people in different fields from banking to advertising. They went there around the same time Somalis came here.
When the first talk about Somalis being the next target group for anti-terror stuff came up in the Dutch media in the post-9/11 era, 20000 Somalis left The Netherlands for the UK. The Netherlands lost many young and educated Somalis. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1479533/Frustrated-Somalis-flee-Holland-for-the-freedom-of-Britain.html
Some people that I know also left around that time but later returned to The Netherlands with their work experience gained in London.
Farang: Are you serious?
What do you mean by “giving back”? When Finn goes to Africa, he brings money to Africa. He pays for it. So how does that compare to an African who comes to Finland and expects Finns to pay for his living? Do you really believe that Finn goes to Africa and just enjoys the food for free? Give me a break, you can’t be serious.
By giving back i ment something you totally misundertood, but i wasnt expecting You to understand it, as we seen in this blog many times you got twisted way of understading things wich is said here, i don’t know is’t the language or your understanding, and btw i thought you didn’t want to have a discussion with me, why the sudden change?
By giving back i ment, Finland likes to enjoy other peoples culturs, foods, drinks, arts, and traveling to abroad and experiencing other peoples cultures and countries, but when it comes to people coming to their country, we have witnesed a great deal of resistence and possible a physical attacks and insults.
Farang: Jos Suomi on tyytyväinen monokulttuurisena maana, niin miksi sitä pitäisi muuttaa? Jos suomalaiset ovat Suomessa tyytyväisiä tilanteeseen, niin miksi ihmeessä suomalaisten pitäisi sitä muuttaa? Kyllä se on tällöin muualta tulevan velvollisuus sopeutua siihen, millainen Suomi on.
Jos Suomalaiset vastustavat ihmisiä harjoittamasta kulttuuriaan ja uskontoaan niin se strategia estää ihmisä sopeutumasta Suomeen, ja toi sinun aroganttinen tyyli sanoa että miksi Suomen pitää olla monikulttuurinen maa, vaikka täällä Suomessa asuu monikulttuursia maita, niin minun mielestä jotta kukaan ei tulisi täne Suomalaisten pitää lopettaa ulkomaille matkustaminen, ja eritää itsensä kuten pohjois Korea, haluatko sinä sitä?
Farang: When Finn goes to Africa, he brings money to Africa.
You don’t know that, as you don’t know all Finns in Finland, you don’t know if he might go there for hunting for leisure time, or of other personal things.
It’s funny how you always give excuse to Finns or how to you they’re always justified of whatever they do, but other are not, others are always wrong, and not justified to do anything no matter what.
Farang: Jos Suomi on tyytyväinen monokulttuurisena maana, niin miksi sitä pitäisi muuttaa? Jos suomalaiset ovat Suomessa tyytyväisiä tilanteeseen, niin miksi ihmeessä suomalaisten pitäisi sitä muuttaa? Kyllä se on tällöin muualta tulevan velvollisuus sopeutua siihen, millainen Suomi on.
Jos Suomalaiset vastustavat ihmisiä harjoittamasta kulttuuriaan ja uskontoaan niin se strategia estää ihmisä sopeutumasta Suomeen, ja toi sinun aroganttinen tyyli sanoa että miksi Suomen pitää olla monikulttuurinen maa, vaikka täällä Suomessa asuu monikulttuursia Suomalaisia, niin minun mielestä jotta kukaan ei tulisi täne Suomalaisten pitää lopettaa ulkomaille matkustaminen, ja eritää itsensä kuten pohjois Korea, haluatko sinä sitä?
D4R, you still seems to not understand the difference between tourism and immigration. You can’t compare Finns being tourists in some other country to a foreigner immigrating Finland. If you want to compare tourism, then you should compare it with the foreigners who visit Finland as tourists.
If someone opposes for example humanitarian immigration, it doesn’t mean he opposes tourism. You can’t mix up definitions like that.
I still don’t “want” do have a discussion with you, I’m not enjoying explaining obvious things, I just have the feeling I need to put some “facts” straight here.
Farang: D4R, you still seems to not understand the difference between tourism and immigration. You can’t compare Finns being tourists in some other country to a foreigner immigrating Finland. If you want to compare tourism, then you should compare it with the foreigners who visit Finland as tourists.
But this comment of your doesnt make any sense, your saying that Finns only go to tourism to other countries but do not reside, i know perosnally many Finns living abroad, even in Africa, what’re you talking about, look, you’re one pointless individual, and i don’t know will i reply to you again, becaue you’re a waste of breath seriously, your thinking is elemntary level.
Think about this: What is the difference here:
a) Person goes to another country on his OWN expense, either as a tourist or maybe moving there as a resident. He pays for his living, food, etc.
b) Person goes to another country to live on this country’s expense. He doen’t pay for his living, food, etc. The society of that new country pays his expenses.
Can’t you really see the difference? Look closer. And when you can see the difference, do you really see it impossible for some people to approve a) but oppose b)?
Farang: Think about this: What is the difference here:
a) Person goes to another country on his OWN expense, either as a tourist or maybe moving there as a resident. He pays for his living, food, etc.
b) Person goes to another country to live on this country’s expense. He doen’t pay for his living, food, etc. The society of that new country pays his expenses.
Can’t you really see the difference? Look closer. And when you can see the difference, do you really see it impossible for some people to approve a) but oppose b)?
Well my question to you is, how do you know about the business of every Finn that travels abroad? you seem to give a reason for every Finn that does something or travels abroad, you can’t possible know of every Finns business that travels abroad, if he will end up residing in to that destination, or will he be a drunkard, a failure in life who will then end up in to that countries welfare system? you can’t know, Farang, you can’t know about the lives of every Finn that’s living abroad, you seem to have painted your mind about Finns a picture wich is a perfect person, a person who is highly intelligent,above other people, center of the universe, never commits a crime, law givers and so on, well pal, to burst your bubble, nobody is that perfect as the image you have painted in your mind about your native Finns.
Farang
“b) Person goes to another country to live on this country’s expense. He doen’t pay for his living, food, etc. The society of that new country pays his expenses.”
Farang selitä miten ihmiset tulet maahan elämään toisten rahoilla. Sellaista pakolais statusta kuin elinkeinopakolainen ei ole olemassa. Pakolaisithan me puhumme kun sinä haluat olla tarkka milaisesta maahanmuutosta on kyse.
Itse en oikein perusta monikulttuurisuudesta, koska se ei selvästi toimi. Suomen monikulttuurisuus on laittaa värillisten kulttuuri lautaselle ja otetaan maistiainen sitten se heitetään roskakoriin. Kiinlainen kulttuuri ei ole pelkää ruokaa eikä Afrikka koostu pelkistä heimotanseista.
D4R
No dear D4R. It was YOU who brought this up like “Why are Finns going abroad if they don’t want foreigners to come in Finland”. That was so generalised comment which itself included the implication that the immigration which is opposed by some Finns would be comparable to Finns going abroad. And that was totally false.
How many Finns move to other country as a humanitarian immigrant? ZERO.
So, if some Finns don’t like humanitarian immigrants coming to Finland, it’s no way comparable with Finns going abroad.
Sasu
Pakolaisia on hyvin pieni määrä näistä humanitaarisista maahanmuuttajista. Suurempi ryhmä ovat turvapaikanhakijat. Kai tei nyt kaikki ymmärrätte että pakolaiset ja turvapaikanhakijat ovat täysin eri asia?
Nämä ovat siis niitä ryhmiä, jotka elävät Suomessa suomalaisten rahoilla, ainakin aluksi. Ja jos hyvin menee niin siirtyvät tästä sitten ajan myötä normaaleiksi veronmaksajiksi. Mutta moni suomalainen näkee nämä pelkästään suomalaisten rahoilla eläväksi ja tämän vuoksi vastustavat heitä.
BlandUpp: D4R
Integration is truly a two-way street. If us natives don’t make an effort too then all your efforts towards integration mean nothing.
I have Somali friends in The Netherlands who are all successful people in different fields from banking to advertising. They went there around the same time Somalis came here.
When the first talk about Somalis being the next target group for anti-terror stuff came up in the Dutch media in the post-9/11 era, 20000 Somalis left The Netherlands for the UK. The Netherlands lost many young and educated Somalis. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1479533/Frustrated-Somalis-flee-Holland-for-the-freedom-of-Britain.html
Some people that I know also left around that time but later returned to The Netherlands with their work experience gained in London.
Let’s hope things will get better, not all Finns are racist, there are wonderfull Finns like you BlandaUpp, i oppose anyone who says all Finns are racist, we hope better times for the future here in Finland, it’s people like me and you who are wiling to make Finland a better place.
Farang: No dear D4R. It was YOU who brought this up like “Why are Finns going abroad if they don’t want foreigners to come in Finland”. That was so generalised comment which itself included the implication that the immigration which is opposed by some Finns would be comparable to Finns going abroad. And that was totally false.
See how stupid is to generalize? now start practicing not to generalize a whole group of people, my mission is complete, it was to make you understand that a whole group of generalization is wrong and can be used against you, now that you’re on the same page im glad. 🙂 never generalize people Farang including Somalians.
Farang
So you are talking about those stupid Finns again. You seem to be obsessed with explaining their views on MT. Why is that?
Or is this now your opinion?
Tell me, Farang. Do you call them stupid to their faces, or only anonymously on messageboards?
D4R
This proves that either you haven’t read what I’ve written or then you haven’t understood what you read. I have never generalised, I have only said that there are lot of people in Finland who generalise.
How many times do I have to say that if I bring up the fact that lot of Finns are generalising, it doesn’t mean that I generalise.
Justicedemon
I think it’s essential to explain their view so that people discussing here would understand better why certain behaviour exists in Finland.
And why shouldn’t I tell about their views? Those are exactly the same people that you here are complaining about. They are exactly those that you see as racists and you discuss and comment about here in MT.
–They are exactly those that you see as racists and you discuss and comment about here in MT.
I disagree with you. The question should be: What value do racist comments, generalizations and victimization of whole groups bring to the debate? The answer that I have after five years of MT is: Nothing because it scares away people who want to debate an issue seriously by finding solutions. And believe me, Farang, we have had our fair share: Detant Bloomhat was a nut case as was Tiwaz, Tony, Hannu and many, many others.
I thought in the back of my mind that some of these personalities would give us an opportunity to understand the way racists think. But the way they think an approach a topic ensures no solutions only constant whining and malicious labeling.
So in the future I would take down any comment on MT that generalizes maliciously about a group.
Farang:This proves that either you haven’t read what I’ve written or then you haven’t understood what you read. I have never generalised, I have only said that there are lot of people in Finland who generalise.
How many times do I have to say that if I bring up the fact that lot of Finns are generalising, it doesn’t mean that I generalise.
Ok then.
Farang wrote “How many Finns move to other country as a humanitarian immigrant? ZERO.”
Wrong my dear Farang. Read the following article:http://euobserver.com/22/14692.
Now, apart from this very extreme case, I could also mention the 4000 or so Finns living in Belgium, the bulk of them being EU-civil servants and their families and mainly living in the Brussels area. They are exempt from all kinds of taxes, they get all kinds of benefits, many of them only know Finnish and English, i.e. they do not speak one of the local languages, being French or Dutch…. But hey, you do not hear me complaining !
All the previous stuff I just wrote was a matter of having a good laugh at the immigrant Finns. Seriously now:
on a broader scale : Finns emigrating to Sweden, my father in law was a good exemple of that. You have a very short term memory for a True Finn.
Now, you pretend as if the locals in Africa only benefit from Finnish tourists. How so then ? By ruining their national parcs, staying in hotels where staff is probably underpaid, where local girls throw themselves willingly (yeah right !) in the arms of the Finnish whore-hoppers ? Come on. We Europeans have built our riches on the empoverishment and plundering of Africa. And especially the Finns by inventing the gsm : the batteries contain coltan, mainly from the Congo. We Europeans like to think that the whole fekking continent of Africa is awaiting our yearly tourist invasion as if we were their saviours ? Let’s maybe first start by giving the Africans what they are entitled to : fair trade.
And let’s not mention the Finns in Pataya and Bangkok, shall we ? Or Uruguay (Stora Enso I believe). Or Afganistan…
Farang Kiitos selityksestä vaikka eipä se nyt hirveästi selittänyt mitään. Kysyisin sinulta haluatko sinä lopettaa pakolaisten ja turvapaikan hakijoiden vastaanottamisen. Kun tuosta kannatta seuraa melkein suoraan, että se pitäisi lopettaa.
MT ´´ Akaaro, does anyone have any news about the Somali lady that was attacked at the Myllypuro metro station?´´
The case about that Somali victim is still unsettled, I was told that the police asked her some questions when the attack happened but they didn’t reveal to her the result of their investigation so far. Offcourse, there is less consideration of this matter at the side of the police. I don’t know why they are so reluctant.
Risto
Wrong dear Risto, it says already on the title: REJECTED
Sasu
En halua lopettaa. Enkä ole koskaan niin väittänytkään.
Olen vain yrittänyt teille tuoda esiin niitä syitä, miksi monet suomalaiset (maahanmuuton vastustaja) haluavat niin tehdä. Mutta Enriquekaan ei tunnu tätä ymmärtävän.
Jos täällä oikeasti halutaan keskustella maahanmuuttajista ja heihin kohdistuvasta rasismista, niin eikö silloin ole ensisijaisen tärkeää pyrkiä löytämään niitä syitä, miksi jotkut ovat rasisteja maahanmuuttajia kohtaan. Minä olen yrittänyt tänne tuoda esiin niitä seikkoja jotka aiheuttavat rasismia joissain ihmisissä. Mutta sen sijaan että te keskustelisitte näistä asioista, te vain syytätte minua rasistiksi, sen vuoksi että tuon keskusteluun mukaan näitä näkemyksiä.
Miten ihmeessä voi ikinä löytää ratkaisua rasismin poistamiseen tai vähentämiseen, jos ei halua edes ymmärtää niitä syitä, jotka aiheuttavat rasismia. Eikö se pitäisi olla itsestäänselvää, että on viisaampaa hoitaa sairaus, sen sijaan että hoitaa vain sen sairauden oireita.
Farang Ok
En nyt jaksa jankata kanssasi, kun näyttää siltä, että emme ole täysin samalla pöydällä siitä mikä tuottaa rasismia ja mikä on oire.
http://www.ankhesen-mie.net/2012/05/contemplating-when-to-speak-up.html
http://www.ankhesen-mie.net/2012/05/rite-of-passage.html#more
Voi kiinnostaa värillisiä.
Farang
To be completely frank, I think that you are merely a racist trying to box clever by setting out a racist agenda in the third person.
If you were genuinely interested in the phenomenon of racism in Finland, then you would begin with the historical experiences of Jews and Roma, and the everyday racist views that were mainstream opinion in the early 20th century (remember those school textbooks?). This is all well-documented and pre-dates black immigration by decades. It is only relatively recently that overt expressions of racism have become unacceptable in polite conversation, but it’s far too early to say that people are no longer motivated by racist sentiment.
What you would like to do here is explore alleged “reasons” for racism, as if it was some kind of rational reaction to the collective failings of certain population groups. This is already a racist agenda.
Your habitual third-person disclaimer is futile. If I tell this board that somebody says you are a kiddiefiddler, but I then fail to specify precisely who told me this, then the justifiable conclusion is that I have called you a kiddiefiddler and that I am spreading this view. Please bear that in mind before you use this forum for spreading racist propaganda in the guise of reporting the views of unidentified “others”. Unless you identify those “others”, then the propaganda becomes yours.
This is how the courts treat pub doormen who claim that “a manager” told them to operate a colour bar: either identify that “manager” or carry the can yourself.
Farang: En halua lopettaa. Enkä ole koskaan niin väittänytkään.
Olen vain yrittänyt teille tuoda esiin niitä syitä, miksi monet suomalaiset (maahanmuuton vastustaja) haluavat niin tehdä. Mutta Enriquekaan ei tunnu tätä ymmärtävän.
Jos täällä oikeasti halutaan keskustella maahanmuuttajista ja heihin kohdistuvasta rasismista, niin eikö silloin ole ensisijaisen tärkeää pyrkiä löytämään niitä syitä, miksi jotkut ovat rasisteja maahanmuuttajia kohtaan. Minä olen yrittänyt tänne tuoda esiin niitä seikkoja jotka aiheuttavat rasismia joissain ihmisissä. Mutta sen sijaan että te keskustelisitte näistä asioista, te vain syytätte minua rasistiksi, sen vuoksi että tuon keskusteluun mukaan näitä näkemyksiä.
Miten ihmeessä voi ikinä löytää ratkaisua rasismin poistamiseen tai vähentämiseen, jos ei halua edes ymmärtää niitä syitä, jotka aiheuttavat rasismia. Eikö se pitäisi olla itsestäänselvää, että on viisaampaa hoitaa sairaus, sen sijaan että hoitaa vain sen sairauden oireita.
You should be banned from this site for giving justification for racism, i don’t know why you’re being allowed to spread your racist propaganda, im a victim of racism and i rebuke you for justifying racism, i think you’re evil and bad person with no feelings, so far you’re being allowed to spread your trash i this blog, this is not Homaforum wehre you guys spread your sickness, im surprised that you come here with what we’re trying to tackle. I expect consideration in your case by admin. I don’t think we need to tolerate you that long.
D4R and Justicedemon
How can you be that ignorant? REASON is not the same thing as JUSTIFICATION.
If I speculate that what might be the REASON for some people to be racists, it doesn’t mean that it JUSTIFIES the racism.
You say you want to tackle racism, but seems like it isn’t so. That should be a goal for all of us, to get rid of racism. But racism doesn’t go away just by pointing a racist with a finger.
Anyway, I would like to hear if everyone in here are so messed up that they can’t understand what I say? You interpret things like an idiot, and that is a fact. For example:
If I say that Person A (finn) doesn’t like Person B (immigrant) because he gets welfare, how can any intelligent person interpret that as I was blaming Person B for the racism? Nobody. The bad person here is Person A. But how do you tackle this? By pointing A a finger and say “You bad racist”? Do you really think that it would make the problem disappear?
Farang
I turned my reply to you into a post, because I think you raised on interesting question about whether pointing the finger at racism is effective.
Quote: It is not our differences that divide us.
It is our inability to recognize, accept,
and celebrate those differences. ~ Audre Lorde
Farang: D4R and Justicedemon
How can you be that ignorant? REASON is not the same thing as JUSTIFICATION.
If I speculate that what might be the REASON for some people to be racists, it doesn’t mean that it JUSTIFIES the racism.
You say you want to tackle racism, but seems like it isn’t so. That should be a goal for all of us, to get rid of racism. But racism doesn’t go away just by pointing a racist with a finger.
Anyway, I would like to hear if everyone in here are so messed up that they can’t understand what I say? You interpret things like an idiot, and that is a fact. For example:
If I say that Person A (finn) doesn’t like Person B (immigrant) because he gets welfare, how can any intelligent person interpret that as I was blaming Person B for the racism? Nobody. The bad person here is Person A. But how do you tackle this? By pointing A a finger and say “You bad racist”? Do you really think that it would make the problem disappear?
What on earth you’re babbling about? i told you, you WERE GIVING JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR RACISM, period, stop your bable, your not making any sense.
Farang: You say you want to tackle racism, but seems like it isn’t so. That should be a goal for all of us, to get rid of racism.
You’re not here to tackle racism here, or even give a solution for the problem, you’re here to justify racism, who’re you trying to kid, we’re not stupid as you may think in your head pal.
D4R and JD: You are accusing me of giving justification to racism. Please explain how?
MT folks! Sleeve emblems are being used by the PS. Check out this link. Sad but true.
This will help the police to identify neofascists in the street.
MT, those badges have already been used for several years by PS. They have nothing to do with recent Eronen case, like you are trying to imply.
M.T: MT folks! Sleeve emblems are being used by the PS. Check out this link. Sad but true.
If this is not a Nazi style then what it’s
“Risto
Wrong my dear Farang. Read the following article:http://euobserver.com/22/14692.
Wrong dear Risto, it says already on the title: REJECTED
”
Granted, but the guy did move to Belgium (he is still in Belgium as far as I know) because he felt Finland was doing him wrong..
Finns do not bring all but benefits to the world. I would like to remind you again of the fact tha Finns moved en masse to Sweden during WWII and that they have been treated as low-life scum by the Swedes.
Hi MT, dear all
MT folks! Sleeve emblems are being used by the PS. Check out this link. Sad but true.
Ahan a good picture thanks MT,
Its very very strange for me that some people think they are better than others, huuum
And they cant explain it why??
They dont have enough word for answer to me, actually they dont have answer, they just follow eachother one by one with close eyes
Maybe they have liar mirrors infront of their face
Or they dont have enough water for wash their eyes,
But for sure they fall in love with their own face
Arm bands, youhoooooooooooo its a joke in twenty first century
U r not super man and super lady but veryyyyyyyyyyyy normal like other people
Color cant makes us better or worst but our act
Also i want infrom u, hey darling racist, am a bit pretty than u, ask ur mirror if u dont believe me
LOL
Joy to the world
Farang
You seem to need another logic lesson. Are you ready for another exercise in kicking and screaming and desperately trying to misunderstand the very, very obvious? Think about how you wound up calling all scientists “stupid” through your blanket ban on “generalisation” a few weeks ago. That one was passed around the philosophy department common room to general amusement.
Ready then?
Please begin by giving us some examples of justifications that are not reasons. A smart chap like you must be able to come up with a few.
justicedemon
You just made an epic failure in logic 😀
If all justifications are reasons, it doesn’t mean that all reasons are justifications.
Similar as: “all women are humans” doesn’t mean that “all humans are women”.
Let that be a lesson for you. I’m getting a bit tired of arguing with idiots like you who either purposely or actually being so stupid can’t understand the simplest thing.
Why do you still make that claim even after we discussed it through that it was all about having different viewpoint of what we mean by generalising. I was referring to generalisations, which are known to be false by anyone who has normal brain capacity. So had nothing to do with what you refer scientists are doing.
I was simply saying that “people who generalise that all people in group X are rapists if some of group X are rapists” and I assumed that you would agree with that. But no, you still had to argue against, so should it be interpreted as you think that kind of people who does that kind of generalisations are intelligent people?
En pitäisi käsivarsi nauhoja hirveen pahoina jos niissä ei ole jotain rasistisia iskulauseita tai hakaristejä. Ne kyllä muistuttavat meitä, että jotkut perussuomalaisista ovat natsi myöteisiä.
“D4R and JD: You are accusing me of giving justification to racism. Please explain how?” Farang
Eikö vastaus tuohon tule aikaisemmassa kommentissa.
“Jos täällä oikeasti halutaan keskustella maahanmuuttajista ja heihin kohdistuvasta rasismista, niin eikö silloin ole ensisijaisen tärkeää pyrkiä löytämään niitä syitä, miksi jotkut ovat rasisteja maahanmuuttajia kohtaan” Farang
Hän hienosti sanoo että rasismi on seurausta maahanmuuttajien omista teoista. Selvästi sanotaan että rasismi on reaktio jostakin mitä maahanmuuttajat tekivät. Näin ollen maahanmuuttajat ovat syypäitä rasismiin. Jos Farang ei kiistä lausuntoo tai väitä minua syylistyneen kontekstista irrottamiseen on päätelmä väistämätön.
“Minä olen yrittänyt tänne tuoda esiin niitä seikkoja jotka aiheuttavat rasismia joissain ihmisissä” Farang
Vahvistaa väitettään tässä lisää.
Tulos on, että Farang kolmannessa persoonassa sanoo maahanmuuttajien oikeuttaneen rasismin. Ja näin ollen voimme todeta, että Farang ei tiedä mitään rasismista eikä tunne sen aate tai käytäntö historiaa. Hän on varmasti lukenut minun, justicedemonin ja Markin kommentteja ja joitakin kirjoituksia. Hän on kuullut täälä olevien värillisten esimerkkejä myös. Hän ei ole silti oppinut mitään rasimista.
Ehkä syy voidaan nähdä hänen tavasta reagoida tietoon rasismista. Farang julistaa rasismista annetut tiedot, joko vainoharhaisiksi taikko ilmoittaa, että olemme ylituntteelisia. Hän ei suostu uskomaan mitä D4R ja muut värilliset kertovat rasismista ja ilmoittaa heidän olleen ylireagoivia tai keksivät asioita päästä.
Liian moni valkoinen ovat Faranging lievempiä versioita. Värillisten ei pitäisi tuhlata liikaa aikaa näiden parissa koska se vie aikaa ratkaisujen kehittelyltä. Jos valkoiset eivät usko rasismiin ja eivätkä halua uskoa niin he ovat toivottomia tapauksia.
http://www.ankhesen-mie.net/2012/05/contemplating-when-to-speak-up.html
Tuoksa on tiivistestysti valkoisten kielto argumentointi.
Sasu, etkö ymmärrä lukemaasi? En ole missään väittänyt, että rasismi olisi seurausta jostain maahanmuuttajien tekemisistä. Enkä missään nimessä että se olisi mikään oikeutus rasismille.
Jos joku idiootti käyttäytyy rasistisesti sen vuoksi, että maahanmuuttaja saa toimeentulotukea, niin miten helvetissä tämä tekee MINUSTA rasistin?
Jos joku idiootti pitää kaikki maahanmuuttajia rikollisena sen vuoksi, että jotkut maahanmuuttajat tekevät rikoksia, niin miten tämä tekee MINUSTA rasistin?
Farang: Sasu, etkö ymmärrä lukemaasi? En ole missään väittänyt, että rasismi olisi seurausta jostain maahanmuuttajien tekemisistä. Enkä missään nimessä että se olisi mikään oikeutus rasismille.
Jos joku idiootti käyttäytyy rasistisesti sen vuoksi, että maahanmuuttaja saa toimeentulotukea, niin miten helvetissä tämä tekee MINUSTA rasistin?
Jos joku idiootti pitää kaikki maahanmuuttajia rikollisena sen vuoksi, että jotkut maahanmuuttajat tekevät rikoksia, niin miten tämä tekee MINUSTA rasistin?
On se kyllä outoa että muut eivät ymmärrä sua, kokonaista joukosta puheenollen, ja sä et näytä ymmärtävän kokonaista joukkoa täällä, onko vika sussa vai heissä? pääteleppä sinä.
Farang
As usual in these lessons, I shall ignore your drivel and force you to stick to the point.
That is a hypothetical. It’s not a straight answer to the question.
Are you sure that all justifications are reasons? Yes or no?
Why are you asking me about justification, because I have not said a single word about justifications. I have only talked about REASONS that some people may have for their actions.
It was YOU who started to talk about justification, like reason would equal to justification. And then you asked me to prove why justifications wouldn’t be reasons, which I never claimed.
Did you notice the word IF in beginning of my sentence above, which you quoted? I said “if all justifications are reasons” to make it clear to you that even if all justifications would be reasons, it would still not mean that all reasons would be justification, which was your initial false accusation.
Sasu
No te nyt ette varsinaisesti vielä mikään iso joukko ole. Ja mikäli teidän älykkyytenne tosiaan on sitä tasoa, mitä kirjoituksilla ja kommenteillanne annatte ymmärtää, niin ei ole lainkaan epätodennäköistä, että vika olisi teissä.
Älä nyt vain tee sitä virheolettamaa, että enemmistö olisi aina oikeassa. Mieti vaikkapa koululuokkaa, jossa on 1 opettaja ja 20 oppilasta. Oppilaat ovat enemmistö, mutta eiköhän silti se opettaja heistä ole se, joka tietää parhaiten.
But anyway, no point to continue wasting my time here any longer. You could have gained so much from me if you would just wanted to have discussion, but since all you want to do is attack me and accuse me of racism, I’ll let you continue here together.
Have fun! This was my last message here, and that’s a promise I’m going to keep.
Farewell!
Farang
You are blabbering and uncertain already. Here is what you wrote above:
A quick search of this thread clearly shows that you introduced the distinction between reasons and justifications in the evident belief that this was somehow relevant and helpful. This appeared to indicate that you need another lesson in logic, and I began this by asking a very simple opening question:
You did not answer this question directly. Instead you provided a hypothetical (a statement beginning with “if” – as you noted and yelled about just now).
I then set out this very preliminary question much more plainly:
This now seems to give you such apoplexy that you already want to break off the discussion. Obviously you are worried that you will get your butt kicked just as badly as last time. Perhaps you can already see it coming, though somehow I doubt that.
I stand by my earlier point that you are trying to use Migrant Tales as a platform for presenting racist propaganda under a third-person disclaimer, and if you refuse to specify the third person concerned, then this is merely your propaganda and you deserve to be called a racist for presenting it.
Now answer the question: are you sure that all justifications are reasons? Yes or no?
The philosophy department common room awaits your response with interest.
Farang: Why are you asking me about justification, because I have not said a single word about justifications. I have only talked about REASONS that some people may have for their actions.
No you didn’t say justification directly in your sentence BUT YOU WERE JUSTIFYING THEIR RACISM by claiming that, if they’re racist then it’s for a reason, that immigrants are the reason why they’re a racist. now you didn’t say that directly either but you were insinuating that, that to me is giving justification for their racism. I think you’re a racist, i think you’re a Homma, that’s th new name for you guys a Homma wich refers to a newage racist.
Farang: But anyway, no point to continue wasting my time here any longer. You could have gained so much from me if you would just wanted to have discussion, but since all you want to do is attack me and accuse me of racism, I’ll let you continue here together.
Have fun! This was my last message here, and that’s a promise I’m going to keep.
Farewell!
YOU’RE A RACIST THE LOWEST OF THE LOWEST
FARANG: No te nyt ette varsinaisesti vielä mikään iso joukko ole. Ja mikäli teidän älykkyytenne tosiaan on sitä tasoa, mitä kirjoituksilla ja kommenteillanne annatte ymmärtää, niin ei ole lainkaan epätodennäköistä, että vika olisi teissä.
Oh please believe it, we’re big in number and we keep growing each year, how does that make you feel? are you already losing your sleep? i notice a thing about you, you seem to get up early just to come to this blog and respond lol
Justicedemon: Now answer the question: are you sure that all justifications are reasons? Yes or no?
He won’t answer that, it’s too big for his head, im surprised that farang has convinced himself that he
somehow can outsmart us, i understand that his buddies in Hommafumforum programmed him to be a superior being, and intelligent over minorities, but atleast i expected him to use his reason an logics but failed. I also notice that, Farang seem to only answer questions selectively, he left many questions an unswered. i don’t think he will answer yours J.D.
Farang
Ok Ehkä oletin liikaa vaikka ei se muuta sanomaasi. Sinähän ilmoitit että rasismi seuraa jostakin mitä maahanmuuttajat tekivät. En oikein tiedä enään mitä sinä yrität viestittää jos sanomasi oli jokin muu. Et ehkä oikeuttanut rasismia mutta ilmoitit että maahanmuuttajat ovat tuoneet sen itselleen.
Mitä tulee rikollisuuteen. Se että maahanmuuttajat tekevät rikoksia taitaa olla fakta eikä sen nostaminen tee sinusta rasistia. En ole edes väittänyt että olisit rasisti sen takia.
Kommentissa taisin vain syyttää sinua tyhmyydestä.
Farang olet tosi kiinnostunut maahanmuutosta, joten kerroppa miten ratkaisemme sen.