By Enrique Tessieri
What would you say about a policeman who wants to begin an open debate on Facebook about rape crimes committed by immigrants? He uses as one of his sources Islamophoibist Perussuomalaiset (PS) MP Olli Immonen, who believes that it is only a question of time when there will be a “war of cultures” in Europe with Muslims.
In order to understand this “open debate” on a grave crime like rape by policeman Marko Forss, we have to ask a few questions: Why is this type of debate important? What does it bring to the table? What is its probable aim?
Forss states that he wants an “open debate” about this hush-hush topic even though it has been a long-time favorite of the anti-immigration wing of the PS led by Jussi Halla-aho never mind Immonen.
Some police, who are known for their reticent views of certain immigrant groups in Finland, appear to sidestep some important issues whenever they bring on the table a crime like rape. They forget, for example, to ask why rape is allegedly higher among immigrants when compared with Finns? Moreover, how reliable are the rape statistics if they include foreign tourists that come to Finland?
When they speak of rape cases are they talking about actual sentenced cases? It does not become clear in the story.
In order to make such a debate fairer, what issues could we discuss? Family unification, which police authorities are happy to tighten, could be one of the causes behind rape cases. Young men have fragmented social networks in this country that are weakened by discrimination and the lack of meaningful opportunities.
What, then, is the probable aim of such an article and quoting an anti-immigration critic like PS MP Immonen?
In my opinion, it sheds light on the probable ideology of the policeman and the direction the “open discussion” should take. The debate cards and issues are stacked in such a way that they can never permit an open and honest debate without fueling stereotypes that all foreign men that cross into Finland become gang rapists.
People like Immonen, who loathe publicly “multiculturalism,” believe that Finland should stop immigration and refugees from coming to Finland from the Arab world, Africa and other parts outside of Europe. This, I believe, is one of the underlying messages of the “open debate” by Forss.
Probably in twenty years, when there are more Multicultural Finns on the police force, these types of “debates” that label wholesale whole groups will have little merit and will serve at best to shown how not to handle a serious crime and issue like rape.
The message should not be: Let’s label all foreigners and then have a frank debate about rape.
“Family unification, which police authorities are happy to tighten, could be one of the causes behind rape cases. ”
Are you suggesting these young men would prefer to rape their own mothers and sisters instead?
That’s really sick.
–Are you suggesting these young men would prefer to rape their own mothers and sisters instead?
By giving them social networks you help them to stay out of trouble. You don’t think that I suggested that they’s rape their mothers and sisters. Oy vey!
PS’s own campaign manager is a convicted violent rapist who served time in jail for rape.
Maybe they should look at themselves before looking at others.
– Family unification, which police authorities are happy to tighten, could be one of the causes behind rape cases.
Are you seriously defending rapists? For me, there is never excuses for a rape. I can understand any other crime types (you steal food because you are hungry, you kill your wife because she slept with your brother etc.), but rape is something totally different. All rapist (can be a Finn or immigrant) are animals and should be put down. Unfortunately in Finland the sentences are laughable…
I feel that I have to comment here as I made comments on Mr. Forss’s Facebook page.
Dear Mr. Tessieri
I think it is actually a positive thing that Mr Forss is opening up that conversation. Not because it is a conversation that opens up the Finnish society or a conversation that solves a lot of problems, but because it is an issue that has been addressed by the anti-immigration camp. Staying quiet on these issues is a lot more damaging to all parties involved than a possibility to a honest debate about the causes and results of these topical phenomenons. If this issue is not examined it only leads to the anti-immigration camp rallying around their flag once more. It does not serve anyone any good in this instance to suggest Mr. Forss a racist for addressing a very complex and difficult issue.
That is the thing. The debate around immigration tends to be too simplistic. Too easy to make shortsighted conclusions that labels groups of emigrants as something and groups of right-wing immigration critics as something else.
There has to be a common ground somewhere, if not a large one then just a tiny one. Fear and prejudice flourish where communication fails.
And it is something positive that there are still few controversial figures who have the will and are in a position that they can put out something like that which is noticed in a variety of media outlets.
Because. What the bottom line is that there has to be a sense of community amongst the people living in Finland whether they be 100% finns or 50% finns and 50% somali. The racial demographics should not be an issue, but how to build a better society with the human beings living in it. This is something that is lacking from this discourse and it needs to be addressed before it is too late.
The thing is, reading your blog I see you as a kind of extremist as well, a very different one compared to the anti-immigration fools and idiots, a very harmless fanatic, but I don’t see your more judgmental writings as something that gives something constructive to the debate. Immonen exaggerates, you exaggerate. What is the difference? Its like Eduskunta all over again. I feel that the biggest difficulty with the current public debate is that there is no common language between the absolutist conservatives and the relativist liberals. No common sense.
Seriously. If a common language cannot be found, what is the point?
Sincerely, Markus.
Hi Markus and welcome to Migrant Tales. It’s funny but you are one of the first persons who has called me “a kind of fanatic.” If you mean that I am a fanatic for social justice and equality, then you are right. But a fanatic in my opinion is somebody that cannot stand dissent. If you surf our blog, you’ll note that there are many opinions: from hardline PS Hommaforum to liberal ones. Do you really think the Forss is now opening the debate of rapes committed by immigrants? Take a look at Halla-aho, Hirvisaari and a long row of others to see how wrong that statement is. What is lacking, however, is an honest debate where immigrants can also participate.
Could you tell us what the “common language” is and how you would bring it out?
I personally believe that a way to debate these issues is by taking a proactive as opposed to reactive stance. By proactive I mean how can we solve a problem and build a better society in the process.
Niko
So you feel that Julian Assange should be facing the death penalty in Sweden after all?
Interesting view.
And here we go, people like Niko think the text is about “defending rapists”. Use your head Niko. We all condemn rapists. But we need pre-emptive action, and the action is not “closing the border” or putting your head in the sand when it comes to social issues confronting immigrants in Finland. People need role models and meaningful contacts among the indigenous people of Finland. They need a chance to take responsibility in their new country and get noticed for doing that. To be accepted as equals. And doing that is NOT defending rapists. Get it?
PS uses rape as a political weapon. It’s the one word that’s always on their minds spreading paranoia about the dangerous “other”. PS members even used rape by foreigners in Norway to justify what Anders Breivik did in Norway.
Before the PS election gains, the tabloid press was full of stories about a gang rape by a group of black men that conveniently was forgotten and never reported on in such vivid detail after it came out the woman had made up the entire story for political reasons.
Why doesn’t this police guy talk about a major problems we are faced with in this society like alcoholism and murder. We are the murder capital of Western Europe and most of the murders are by Finns on other Finns while under the influence of alcohol. What can we change about ourselves to make us less alcoholic and less violent?
Ricky
Let’s begin with properly age-weighted statistics, instead of assuming that a population group in which the single largest component comprises males aged between 20 and 44 is directly comparable to a population in which the single largest component is women aged over 60.
Alternatively, let’s complain about the overwhelming propensity of Finns to endanger road safety by driving a motor vehicle after exceeding the normal licensing age and not securing a dispensation. Why is this such a peculiarly Finnish crime? Is there some criminal element in the Finnish genetic makeup that makes it so much less likely that the offender will be an immigrant?
JusticeDemon, totally agree. Maybe you’d like to post a thread on his Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000224146793
[b]Niko[/b]
“All rapist (can be a Finn or immigrant) are animals and should be put down.”
Why does the PS have a convicted violent rapist, Matti Putkonen, as their campaign manager? It smells of outright hypocrisy. One rule for them and one rule for us?
–Why does the PS have a convicted violent rapist, Matti Putkonen, as their campaign manager? It smells of outright hypocrisy. One rule for them and one rule for us?
A good question, BlandaUpp. You should ask the PS about this. Putkonen has been sentenced for rape which is a different story than being accused for rape.
BlandaUpp
Why do you ask me this question? I’m not a PS supporter if you are implying to that. That sentence which Enrique wrote, just sounded that he was justifying to being a rapist. Probably he didn’t mean it. I just said that there is never any excuses for a rape. I could say that when it comes to rapes, I have maybe quite extreme view of it.
Niko, who is defending rapists? Come on… use your head. I think it is important to have a social network (family) to keep young men out of trouble. Rootlessness and hopelessness aren’t nice places to be.
But look at the debate on Marko Forss website: A white policeman speaking about rape without a woman’s never mind immigrant’s point of view.
Niko, what kind of an idiot are you for finding murder to be a perfectly justified response to anything, let alone to something as silly as adultry?
Martin-Éric
Wow, insulting a person anonymously via internet… so fresh 😛 but ok, I do admit that my example about adultery was quite bad. The point wasn’t that I APPROVE the murder, but that I UNDERSTAND (in some cases) that why it is done. Of course the person needs to be punished as it is written in the law. Let’s say, that someone would stab Anders Breivik in the prison I think many people would be happy about it. In some cases murder is justified, even not approved. Would you kill a person if it would save thousands of innocent people?
For rape I don’t see any justification. It is your decision and you can’t blame anyone or anything about it. Not even that you didn’t have a family or friends.
But back to the original post: I do think there should be an open discussion any problems in our society, but you need to include all sides to it. This will never happen, but I would actually be interested to hear from a person who has commit this type of crime and why he did it.
Oh, the rapist as victim, that’s my favorite! Since he is alone without his family, working and studying with only friends but no female companionship, he has to rape women?
OOOOOH BOY! Now we’re talking Clintonesque way-down-low thinking!
Do these same fellows, within their own countries, when they go to a different city to work, also rape their own women just because their women and sisters are far away? Well, golly, if it’s okay in North Africa and so on, why not in Finland? Cultural relativisim, we love it!
There’s something whacko out there in these male brains. However, fear not, if rapists stay true to form, some of their victims will be boys, and then maybe the Finnish fathers will step up to the plate with some heavy-duty righteous anger. A Finnish male angry about rape in his family: knives and guns are coming! Watch out, immigrant male unable to keep your pants zipped up!