Comment: Below is one of the best editorials I have read in a long time from Tampere-based Aamulehti. It makes reference to Milla Hannula’s book, Maassa maan tavalla, and how she attempts to give legitimacy to anti-immigration groups in Finland. It is a good matter that dailies like Aamulehti can reveal this group for what it is: a minority attempting to rob our sacred historical icons to justify their xenophobia.
I have written before that Finns are wise and understand that the future of this country does not lie in spreading hatred and populism.
Do you agree?
____________
Matti Mörttinen
Maahanmuuttokriitikot ovat kaikesta päätellen vyöryneet viimeisen vuoden aikana ainakin jonkin hyväksyttävyyskynnyksen yli. Heidän taistelunsa ”poliittista korrektiutta” vastaan on ehkä seuraavaksi johtamassa siihen, että maahanmuuttokriitikoiden arvostelemisesta tulee poliittisesti epäkorrektia.
To keep on reading click here.
I doubt that the expression poliittinen korrektius has been sanctioned by our Kielitoimisto (Kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskuksen kielenhuolto-osasto) as an accurate equivalent to PC in English.
I did not find this expression in my 1983 edition of Nykysuomen sanakirja or 1990 edition of Suomen kielen perussanakirja, and instead this seems to be an example of lazy or unschooled transliteration.
OED gives the following paradigm use of politically correct:
Could we render this into Finnish along the lines of Puhevioille nauraaminen ei ole poliittisesti korrektia? Is this the sense in which poliittinen korrektius is used in modern Finnish?
Returning to the same theme, Kielitoimisto offers yltiöasiallisuus as a Finnish synonym for poliittinen korrektius. This is interesting, as yltiöasiallisuus cannot be used in a credible translation of the OED paradigm: Puhevioille nauraaminen ei ole yltiöasiallinen would imply that laughing at speech impediments is somehow ordinary/unremarkable.
It follows from this that poliittinen korrektius is not the same as political correctness.
This is hardly surprising. For all of their invective against poliittinen korrektius, we do not see the far right routinely referring to individuals according to body mass index or standards of personal hygiene.
Or perhaps that would simply be a poor choice of battleground.
Spreading hatred and populism is definitely a step backwards. We’ve already seen the rise of populist and totalitarian regimes and we should have already learnt the lesson. However, it seems to me that extremisms (neo-nazis, for instance) are a growing trend in all continents. Why? When it comes to tolerance and mutual respect, humanity seems to be regressing.
I think that populist and totalitarian regimes don’t get too far. Look what is happening in Libya today after Tunisia and Egypt. It is like what Thomas Jefferson wrote that if a government does not serve the people the people have the right to change government by peaceful means or by force. Neo-nazis are still a minute minority but far-right groups glorifying them are growing. This has a lot to do with the global economy. Don’t forget what happened in September 2008. The Great Depression unleashed Hitler and World War 2.
We live in a globalized world so it’s pretty difficult to control information. That is one matter that protects us. Look at the Twitter and Facebook revolutions in the Middle East.
I didn’t read this book so I can’t comment about it, but I do respect Aamulehti very much. If this had come from HS though, I’d take it with a pinch of salt.
Nevertheless, quite interestingly, just a few days ago you did write a hard article criticizing Aamulehti’s position on multiculturalism. I think that we now clearly established the one can be pro immigration but yet, against multiculturalism.
Thanks Enrique for helping clarifying this. So close the to election this is vital.
–I think that we now clearly established the one can be pro immigration but yet, against multiculturalism.
A paper can always write a good editorial and can change its editorial policy. But you must understant that the fire in the pizzeria and the shooting that took place puts all immigrants in a dubious light.
Mateus, Europe has been tolerating intolerance for far too long. But the people is starting to get fed up with this. Things are changing, and they are changing fast…
–Mateus, Europe has been tolerating intolerance for far too long.
So because a few in the Arab community in Europe, which amount to 5% of the total population, are now forcing Europe to take a major shift? Are you certain?
“because a few in the Arab community in Europe”
Quantity is not relevant, effectiveness is. How many was necessary to kill more than 3K in 9/11?
“A paper can always write a good editorial and can change its editorial policy.”
They didn’t change anything, they are pro immigration but against multiculturalism.
“But you must understant that the fire in the pizzeria and the shooting that took place puts all immigrants in a dubious light.”
No all, only some…
–They didn’t change anything, they are pro immigration but against multiculturalism.
You know as well as I and everyone who knows something about multiculturalism that this does not make sense. In the first place I don’t know what you are speaking of. If Finland is going to have more immigrants it is going to be a multicultural society demographically. Due to our laws, those people have the same rights as the natives. Finland is not officially a multicultural country like Canada (social policy) but its laws express that sprit.
And Ricky scores a debating point Bugs Bunny style!
lol@Tony the TobyJug
“If Finland is going to have more immigrants it is going to be a multicultural society demographically.”
It doesn’t mean that immigrants can behave like they are in Kabul or Baghdad. Multicultural? Maybe no that much, the closure of Muslim swimming only time in Helsinki is a good example of this.
Besides these people are always looking for greener grass. If the “weather” turns a bit “cold” for Muslims in Finland they will find somewhere else to go.
“Due to our laws, those people have the same rights as the natives.”
Absolutely, SAME rights, but not MORE…
–It doesn’t mean that immigrants can behave like they are in Kabul or Baghdad.
Do you honestly believe that they do? Please don’t spread misinformation about immigrants. Immigrants are ambitious people who are ready to adapt and most of them succeed despite the fact that some countries don’t reciprocate. What is the use to travel thousands of kilomters and adapt to a new country? To sit on one’s behind and do nothing? You should know better.
I think we have gone pretty thoroughly on what multiculturalism is but you always return to these same guys with xenophobic sound bites.
Your big mistake in your analysis of immigrants is that you place people in groups and think they act like robots to the commands of their culture. We have free will and the ability to adapt.
–Absolutely, SAME rights, but not MORE…
Have you read thoroughly our constitution, non-discrimination act and the UN Declaration of Human Rights? These are laws and declarations that Finland abides by.
More than once you have praised how Ireland had handled immigration. Well, during the golden ages of the Celtic Tiger, with a huge influx of immigration, Ireland had a opportunity to take a step towards be a truly multicultural society. Instead they preferred to be an Irish nation with immigrants.
You once asked what Ireland has done right, well here there is not appeasement…
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0823/turban.html
But yes, we can learn a thing or two from Canada…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4236762.stm
“Please don’t spread misinformation about immigrants.”
Please don’t generalise, you know very well that I’m not talking about all immigrants, just those…
“You should know better.”
I do, and so does you, so please stop playing this silly game. Most immigrants do just fine, that little group, though, is the problem.
“We have free will and the ability to adapt.”
Absolutely, that’s why I don’t see what the fuss is all about it. Who wants can, and do, adapt/assimilate very well, it’s all about will.
“Have you read thoroughly our constitution, non-discrimination act and the UN Declaration of Human Rights? These are laws and declarations that Finland abides by.”
Sorry now you lost me, what this got to do with immigrants having the SAME but not MORE rights than Finns?
–Sorry now you lost me, what this got to do with immigrants having the SAME but not MORE rights than Finns?
Read these documents and you will find the answers. They are key. This ensures that they have the same rights and obligations. One of these is their identity and the right to celebrate it.
“One of these is their identity and the right to celebrate it.”
So, Finnish constitution explicitly gives a Muslim the right to discriminate against women, or to promote anti-Semitic views? Sorry, I didn’t know that.
–So, Finnish constitution explicitly gives a Muslim the right to discriminate against women, or to promote anti-Semitic views?
You know the answer to that so why do you ask? But celebrating one’s identity does not mean spreading hatred. That is a too narrow definition and view of the matter.
Than, my friend, case is closed. There are limits to your buddy’s right to celebrate their identity. They either fit in or piss off…
Or like Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar put so beautifully…
“I’d tell them, this is Canada, and in Canada, we teach music and physical education in our schools. If you don’t like it, leave. If you want to live under sharia law, go back to the hellhole country you came from or go to another hellhole country that lives under sharia law,”
–Than, my friend, case is closed. There are limits to your buddy’s right to celebrate their identity. They either fit in or piss off…
To who’s world? Yours? Why not include all other minorities and send them the same message: “fit in or piss off!” Not a good election pitch.
Tell me how many Muslims are demanding Sharia law in the EU? All? Minority? You speak as if (a) because you are a Muslim you must (b) accept Shria Law. Not.
“Tell me how many Muslims are demanding Sharia law in the EU?”
Wrong question…
Question 1: Who are demanding, and how powerful and influent they are in the Muslim community?
Question 2: How many Muslims who are not demanding Sharia but would not oppose it either?
–Wrong question…
It is the right question. But please answer those two questions and if possible tell us your sources:
Question 1: Who are demanding, and how powerful and influent they are in the Muslim community?
Question 2: How many Muslims who are not demanding Sharia but would not oppose it either?
There you go, my friend, enjoy it…
This answer the first question (Muslim Council of Britain) and explain what Sharia courts, as advocated by our beloved Anas Hajjar, really means.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-religious-courts
This answer the second and also our old question about how, and to what, the second generation of Muslim in Europe are changing to.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6308683.stm
PS. Before you jump to the cheap Muslim victimology argument, please pay a little attention to this…
“The survey also showed 84% of Muslims believed they had been treated fairly in British society. “
Tony, I think that if you concentrated more on what bonds us instead of always exploiting and magnifying our differences much of the feelings you have of certain groups would vanish. For a society to function well we need mutual acceptance, trust and the benefit of doubt. Equal opportunity is also paramount. When we point out how different we are we never resolve anything.
It is already perfectly legal in Finland to conclude contracts governed by Sharia law and to submit disputes arising under these contracts to binding arbitration by a Sharia court where so agreed. The regular courts in Finland will also enforce arbitration awards made by Sharia courts.
A typical example of such a contract might arise between a wholesaler and retailer of Halal foods. These parties have as much right to regulate their relationship according to Sharia law and to submit their disputes to a Sharia court as Finnish merchant bankers have to regulate their relationship according to English law and to submit their disputes to a commercial court in London. In both cases the award is legally enforceable through the regular courts in Finland to the extent that it is not manifestly contrary to the main principles of the Finnish legal order.
The same principle applies to arbitration awards made by Rabbinical courts or by the court of arbitration for sport.
Tony the Toby is advocating discrimination. In line with the Finnish Constitution and binding international instruments, the Arbitration Act (Laki välimiesmenettelystä 23.10.1992/967) is entirely impartial as to the arbitration venue and the choice of applicable law of contract.
Sorry Enrique but did I answer your 2 questions?
“For a society to function well we need mutual acceptance, trust and the benefit of doubt. Equal opportunity is also paramount. “
Well, according to the the BBC report Muslims in the UK fell they have all of this, so what went wrong then? Why are they so radicalized?
“When we point out how different we are we never resolve anything.”
That’s why I’m so against multiculturalism.
Tony, I think we have to treat with tweezers opinion polls, or be critical of them. Moreover, what is the issue if a person in a culture wants to practise his/her culture? Do you see anything wrong with that? Knowing you, you look at it as a failure but it could be something normal (maintaining my culture while adapting to my new home) and revealing because it shows were we have failed. I told you a lot of times that probably the second generation is more radical than the first because they have seen how their parents were treated and demand rightfully a better reception. Is there anything wrong with that? Or should they be apathetic and accept their situation?
lol@Tony the TobyJug
This comes from someone of immigrant background in a mixed marriage, who fails to learn the language while living in Finland and then drags his young multicultural family through several countries following the money.
FFS, you couldn’t make it up!
At least you’ll know exactly where to start when you get round to eliminating all that multiculturalism.
I wonder what the future will be like for unemployed ex-Nokia engineers in Kangasala…
So, I’ll take this as an yes, I did answer you questions.
By the way, how did you treat that poll where Somali’s were complaining about discrimination in Finland?
“I told you a lot of times that probably the second generation is more radical than the first because they have seen how their parents were treated and demand rightfully a better reception.”
Sorry, but 85% of the interviewed are saying something quite differently, you just happened to have “missed” it.
“Moreover, what is the issue if a person in a culture wants to practise his/her culture? Do you see anything wrong with that?”
Enrique, tell us, you have no problem with Finland having two code of laws, one for Muslims and another for non-Muslims? Because this is what they are demanding. Common, time to get out of your confortable zone and give us simple answer for a dimple question, are you OK with this or not?
Time to come out of your confortable zone…
Should the Finnish legal system implement this provision? Not for all, obviously, but for some?
http://www.islamic-sharia.org/general/on-the-testimony-of-women-2.html
A simple YES or NO will do.
Society is in many cases not a “yes” or “no” place. It is also not a place to exaggerate and portray others like they were monsters. As I have told you many times, the far-right uses the same argument over and over again no matter who is speaking: “These people are so weird that we cannot live with us. Our racism is justified.”
You have no idea how off the mark you are. If society would be such an easy thing like “yes” or “no” we would live in Nirvana today.
Finland already has several codes of law, depending on the activity in question. Tony the Toby is demonstrating profound ignorance of the very very obvious in this regard.
For example there is a code of law governing football that is very highly developed indeed, including a system of enforcement and an apparatus for settling disputes. This code applies to everyone who engages in the collective activity of playing football, and the consequences of seriously or persistently infringing the code may be exclusion from that activity for a set period or indefinitely. In the case of a professional footballer, such exclusion means a loss of livelihood, but the regular courts will uphold the ruling of the football authorities to the extent that this ruling does not conflict with the basic principles of the Finnish legal order.
The situation is precisely parallel with specialised codes of law governing a very wide range of collective activities, including religious activities and membership of religious communities. One simple example of this is the penalty of excommunication ordered for a religious offence by a Roman Catholic ecclesiastical court. In the case of a priest, excommunication means loss of livelihood, but this penalty is not unlawful as such in Finland, even though it conflicts with section 18 of the Constitution. This example illustrates the point that there is a code of law for Roman Catholics in Finland that does not apply to non-Catholics.
These specialised codes of law are in no way diminished by the fact that the individual can abandon the activity in question. A professional footballer who chooses to stop playing football owes no further debt of loyalty to the laws of the game, but naturally there is a considerable personal wrench involved in abandoning an activity in which so much time and effort has been invested. Similar considerations apply to religious codes. This is one very important reason why Moslems petition Sharia courts for rulings on points of conflict. The Sharia court is the appropriate forum for seeking an Islamic solution to a problem that has arisen within the Moslem community. It enables the petitioner to settle the problem on terms that the community will accept.
Enrique, why are you so afraid of giving a strait answer? Such a simple question, Muslims are demanding that Finland allows them to use Sharia law when dealing with their matter, like divorce. Do you agree or not?
Enrique, I have to say that you really disappointed me now.
Someone with a degree in anthropology, who have studied sociology, with 30 years experience in journalism, lived in and travelled to many different countries and with an indisputable multicultural background, but yet you don’t have a clear opinion if Finland should established independent and autonomous Sharia compliant courts to deal with some aspects concerning Muslim’s life, like family or divorce.
If we can’t have your expert opinion on such important subject, who should we ask from? A layperson like Mark Steyn?
Do you have enough knowledge to answer these questions that you pose? I believe JusticeDemon answered your question comprehensively.
Tony the Toby is as dumb as a box of rocks, not least about the Finnish legal and public administrative system.
Finland is entirely neutral concerning the establishment of a Sharia court here. This is entirely a matter for the Finnish Islamic community, and has nothing to do with general public policy. There are no legal impediments to establishing a permanent Sharia court in Helsinki corresponding in every respect to the one in London. The obstacles to this are entirely practical and largely concern cost-effectiveness. It will happen if the Finnish Islamic community chooses to make it happen, but this does not seem at all likely in the immediate future.
It is generally amusing to see Tony the Toby arguing that Ricky should have a firm opinion because of his educational background and experience.
Firm opinions of the kind that you require, Toby, are more a sign of ignorance than knowledge.
That’s why you find it so easy to pontificate.
Well let me see…
Question 1: Which influent Muslim person or group is demanding Sharia? Question answered by the Guardian article with the bonus answer explaining what is wrong with that.
Question 2: How many Muslims want to live under Sharia? Question answered by the BBC report with the the bonus answer if the second generation of Muslims is becoming better or worse?
The only question I really would like to have answered is if you would support the implementation of Sharia courts in Finland. I’m sure you have an opinion about it but, for some reason, you prefer to stay in your comfortable zone. Disappointing…
PS: Once you are looking for quotes, there is one for you…
“Arguments for Sharia law are based on the concept of group rights. And group rights are inherently hostile to human rights.” – David Pollock, President of the European Humanist Federation
Once more playing Socrates to my favourite Platonic stooge, Tony the Toby:
David Pollock is evidently not a lawyer. This definition would exclude most of the rights referred to in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, including the right of peoples to self-determination. Paragraph 3 of Article 21 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (“the will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government…”) makes no sense at all unless a collective can have rights. Article 22 of the Declaration refers explicitly to economic, social and cultural rights that are realised in an irreducibly collective context. Section 17 of the Constitution of Finland refers to the rights of the Sami, Roma and other groups. There are also several traditional human rights that are normally expressed in individual terms but have an essentially collective context, such as the right to family life and freedom of association.
Oh dear – in the world of Tony the Toby we are not supposed to think about soundbites.